Analysis, VR World

Gamers Revolt: Another Take on The Zoe Quinn Scandal

Revolt

The gaming industry is at a crossroads, with clearly defined heroes on one side nefarious shadowy villains on the other. Yet another scandal has riven the community, sending shockwaves felt throughout the industry.

Unlike many scandals in the past, key gaming publications have remained almost silent on this conflict due to its controversial and sensitive nature.

This new battle, dubbed “Quinngate”, has indie devs, journalists and gamers themselves brawling it out across social networks and forums across the internet. So far what little reporting on the scandal has been decidedly one-sided. No one is looking at the other side to see why gamers are up-in-arms, and why they want to strike out.

To investigate this one must venture past the hate-filled streets where “white knights” and “sexist cis misogynists” are embattled in a tireless war; to see how this all started, one must look at the whole picture from a gamer’s perspective, and trace the events –past and present– that led to the conflict.

Dorito King

“And there [Geoff Keighly] sits, right there, beside a table of snacks. He will be sitting there forever, in our minds. That’s what he is now. ” –Robert Florence, Eurogamer

Then: Compromised Integrity and the Rise of the Doritos King

Games journalism has, like its cousin hardware journalism, been largely influenced by the parties that this fourth estate is trying to cover. Big-name publishers have been known to offer incentives and bribes to journos affiliated with big-name publications.

This a well-known part of the industry, but it is sapping away credibility and causes gamers to question the ethics of the media outlets and their coverage.

This question of credibility came to a head two years ago when a Eurogamer writer named Robert Florence tackled the subject in a controversial article. The opinion piece analyzed and dissembled the code of ethics that surrounds games journalism, voicing key concerns that are still cited by the gaming movement today.

Erik Kain, a journalist well-respected by the gaming community for his candor and sharp wit, articulated the incident in an article on Forbes:

“…The fact of the matter is, articles like Florence’s and the fallout of that article do point to a widespread, deeply entrenched problem facing the gaming press and its lack of a uniform ethical code that often serves or at least appears to serve game publishers first and consumers second.” 

Florence, who singled out journalists by name, was consequently met with a libel suit and eventually left the publication. Even though Florence is gone, his words continue resonate with a timeless truth that’s ultimately helped shape the viewpoint of corruption in games journalism.

Watch Dogs bullshots

Deceptive tactics like bullshots are well-documented within the gaming sphere, and have perpetuated the cynical outlook of gamers.

Now: The Rigors of Gaming

Robert Florence and Erik Kain have been key influences in the “grassroots gaming movement” that calls for change, truth and integrity in gaming coverage. But the times have been met with little change, and our next-gen era is permeated with even more worrisome trends.

Now gamers are being persecuted on a whole new level thanks to tactics both new and old: “bullshots” (Aliens: Colonial Marines, Watch Dogs on PC), extortion-esque tactics that milk gamers’ wallets (season passes, content hidden behind paywalls, expensive collector’s editions), and now being pressured to adhere to a code of moral ethics.

These trends have become an offensive part of the industry, and gamers feel neglected as consumers and pushed around as readers.

Not only are they being assaulted on the financial front due to a portion of AAA-games being locked behind paywalls, they’re now being objectified by a moral crusade that laments certain behavior as insufferable.

Online-only games and DRM restrictions have become big weights on gaming as well, leading to the community lashing out in near unanimous disdain.

All of these things add very real pressure on the industry’s key constituency, who feel as if the soul of gaming itself is eroding and falling into a state of perpetual commercialism. And worse, it appears there’s nothing to be done about it.

Zoe Quinn, an indie dev behind various free games like Depression Quest, is a known activist and was targeted in the recent industry-centric scandal.

Zoe Quinn, an indie dev behind various free games like Depression Quest, is a known activist and was targeted in the recent industry-centric scandal.

Along Came Zoe Quinn

The Zoe Quinn scandal (aka Quinngate) is an unfortunate climax to industry pressures that have been building for quite some time. Quinn is an indie dev who’s best known for making Depression Quest, a free game that seamlessly articulates the rigors of living with depression.

The tirade kicked off earlier this week when her ex-boyfriend, Eron Gjoni, made a lengthy post that aired her dirty laundry by alleging sexual infidelity with multiple partners. The allegations listed Nathan Grayson, a journalist for Kotaku and Rock Paper Shotgun, as one of her partners, along with a myriad of others.

The implications of a games developer (indie or otherwise) getting involved with a journalist were the cause of backlash, and were seen as a glaring sign of that games journalism (and possibly the industry) is lacking a moral code.

Reddit Censor

Multiple social media sites and forums discussing the Quinngate scandal were riddled with censorship and redacted comments.

After the news hit, gamers took to Reddit, 4chan and Twitter to discuss what happened and voice their feelings. A torrent of harassment and vitriolic chaos soon followed, leading quickly to Quinn’s Reddit account apparently being hacked.

Shortly after Quinn’s account was compromised, Reddit posts on the subject started getting censored and pulled. Thousands of comments were redacted as users systematically had their collective voices and their freedom to challenge, comment and criticize taken away.

It wasn’t just the offensive comments that were removed, though; they were all wiped clean.

Reddit mod el_chupacupcake later clarified that it was Reddit’s policy to “remove all offending content and report users up to Admin for ToS violations“. But further reports indicate that the mod may have been biased and was “trying to cover his own back and stem the flow of hate caused by the amount of censorship”.

The blanket censoring of voices across different mediums earned even  more ire from the community, leading to an even greater conflict.

Fil Phish

Popular streamer TotalBiscuit also caught flak for discussing his take on the Zoe Quinn scandal. The piece, which revealed the YouTuber’s opinions on the matter, was instantly attacked by indie dev Phil Fish — one of Quinn’s key colleagues and supporters.

Fish, developer of indie hit Fez, has been known to deliver rant-style Tweets, and has recently left Twitter after apparently being doxxed.

The infiltration was a direct response to Fish defending Quinn during the controversy, accompanied with the following message:

“Hello everyone, I am the head mod over at /V/ and leader of 4chan.org and Anonymous.

“This public execution of Polytron and Phil Fish is retaliation for his attempted coverup of five guys burger and fries.

“Let this be a warning to all SJW game devs out there, we are coming for you.

“The hack of Zoe Quinn has already taken place as of a few days ago and I have targeted more SJW indie devs today.

“My next target is Phil Fish. Karma’s a bitch ain’t it Phil?

“We are /V/
“We do not forgive
“At all”

GameNosh, a publication that covered the exchange between TotalBiscuit and Fish, faced similar censorship and opposition as their site host wanted them remove the article completely.

This mass redaction and censoring of commentary from the community was seen as a massive retaliation that goes against the free spirit of the press itself. If anything, the forced silence in turn reinforced the perception of corruption of the industry while also revealing glaring hypocrisy in the process.

It appears that the publications want gamers to forget about the situation, and want it to go away.

The scandal has affected a lot of people, including Quinn, Phil Fish (who’s personal and corporate info went public), Eron Gjoni, Nathan Grayson as well almost the entire gaming community who saw these actions as a big sleight to the industry.

But the attack apparently wasn’t about Quinn, or her private life: it was about holding developers, journalists and publications accountable for their actions–mainly the looked-over fraternization of a journalist and an indie dev, as well as the ethical pressures from counterculture activism.

Monopoly

The reports of bribery and nepotism–along with a sort of monopolized control over content–has set the precedent for how gamers feel. If they can’t trust a website, then cultural topics can often be seen as sensationalized “click bait”.

Cultural Pressures From Gaming Publications

Mainstream journalism has a reign on all of the info gamers will see. It’s a sort of monopoly; they’ll get the exclusive scoops, the interviews, and often a lot of the content first. In a way they control and set the precedent for games journalism.

Big publications have the clout, and as such they also have most eyes on them, and are responsible for delivering the information to the public. These publications, who have such an inherent large standing in the community, are in turn upheld to higher standards.

When journos — both new and old — use their influence to try to tell gamers something is “right” or “wrong” because they (and their overwhelming populace of fans) say so, it can severely compromise their integrity in the eyes of their readers.

When that same coverage bleeds over on cultural topics, naturally it’ll be met with cultural responses: disagreement, hatred, and skirmishes that can quickly fuel a war of sorts. It’s to be expected when writing on a controversial topic.

BINGO Zoe Quinn

Zoe Quinn created this chart to reflect “the comments on any article a woman writes or is featured by on a major gaming website”, objectifying a core audience of gamers in the process. It’s apparently also a drinking game.

When these topics are met with criticism and outright raw hate, a cyclic sense of moral authority is perpetuated. If controversial topics such as sexism in video games is challenged even in a non-hostile way, it’s in turn met with hostility–and it’s this very sort of moral arrogance that is irking gamers.

Furthermore, the gaming movement sees controversial topics as a means of sensationalism to earn clicks rather than to reveal a troubling cultural trend. This perception largely has to do with the way that the content is conducted and portrayed.

Gamers feel like they aren’t being respected or represented anymore. Many feel that big publications have turned their backs along with key members of the industry in favor of the “SJW (Social Justice Warrior)” cause.

It’s taken on a sort political scope from the gaming community’s point of view, where politicians take part in certain causes to maintain a certain positive image.

Large sects–including 4chan.org’s /v/ and gamers on N4G–feel like they’re being pressured to reconcile with wrongs that a portion of gamers have committed.

“I think it’s sad that people are so blind that they’re desperately trying to shrug off the current Zoe Quinn controversy rather than stopping to think about how it’s just part of a very large issue plaguing the industry as a whole, in that the vast majority of media coverage on games is in no way impartial.”

These people, most of which who want to discuss games (and the industry) in a critical, meaningful way, are being lumped into a big classification–they’re ironically being objectified as a result of what some gamers choose to do and say.

Instead of trying to understand or clarify why gamers are feeling this way, they are dismissed outright for “toxic” beliefs.

In fact, no one cares about Zoe Quinn, her game or her personal life. The reason people are interested in this here (on gaming discussion sites like N4G) is because it furthers the case on corruption of gaming journalism and because some indies and journalists are acting like a mob to censor and/or ridicule the discussion itself. 

Beyond Criticism

Games journalism today is accompanied by a sort of perceived moral crusade that taps into Twitter’s “echo chamber” effect to tell people (gamers, in this case) how to think and feel.

Journos are now waving a banner and using their influence to actively spread a cause they believe in, which is perceived as unprofessional. Morality in gaming is an important topic for the cultural side of games coverage, and it should be explored in an unbiased, professional manner.

Many journalists objectively report on video games culture only to deliver biased messages on Twitter. This is alienating many gamers–a game journalists core constituency–and serves as a glaring hypocrisy in our industry.

White Knight

The “white knight” term has been attributed to gamers who “blindly defend women and deliver special attention” with the same fanaticism and zeal as a crusader does with religion.

The general perception seems to be this: if members of the gaming industry can’t account for their own actions, who are they to push upon their own moral code onto the public?

When games journo Jeff Gerstmann delivered an honest review back in 2007, GameSpot –who had then acquired the gaming outlet Giant Bombfired him as a result of Eidos threatening to pull ad revenue due to the review’s low score.

Gerstmann was held accountable for his actions, much to the disdain of the gaming world — as was Eurogamer’s Robert Florence.

Even corporate giants are held accountable for their mistakes. Sony shelled out $15 million in damages over the PlayStation Network breach in 2011 that compromised the personal and financial info of millions of subscribers. Gearbox was also called out for false advertising, and had to pay out $1.25 million in a class action lawsuit for Aliens: Colonial Marines.

Now in the current scandal, only one side is being accused of wrongdoings–the gamers who support the movement.

Phil Fish was forcibly held accountable by hackers for his role in the tirade, leading to his private company information being made public across Twitter.

Further harassment on Quinn has been well-documented, but what about the wrongs done to the other side that led to this rebellion?

“Fans, FANS! being insulted by the largest mainstream Video Game “Journalism” website for not accepting being lied to by developers? Check. Firing editors / Journalists who dare to rate a game legitimately, rather than kowtowing to advertiser revenue? Check.

“The rampant conflict of interest between developers and “Journalists,” the ‘impartial reviews’ replaced with ‘advertising,’ and the subsequent firing, degradation and industry wide condemnation of someone who dared criticise a female. That is a BIG check.”

The only difference is that everyone seems to be looking the other way out of deference to understanding the rebellion and why it’s happening. It appears that most people want to agree with the majority out of fear of their likeness being compromised, and journalists don’t want to tackle the sensitive subject.

Gamers are frustrated, feel betrayed and without a voice. People listen to Quinn, to journalists, and to extremist groups like Feminist Frequency but gamers are often ignored outright if they disagree with the majority’s viewpoint of right and wrong, regardless of their reasons.

Bribery and nepotism is seen as a seedy practice, and the Quinn situation appears to be a catalyst for a means of change. The instrument of change — offensive harassment and invasion of privacy — was an ill-conceived venture, not only because it adds credence of one side being in the right, but it added more fuel to the fire.

The conflict was, apparently, an act to initiate a revolution to change the industry and dispel the corruption. But it quickly escalated past that, and both sides are suffering the casualties of a very real, brutal battle.

Peace

To end any struggle, both sides have to be willing to understand one another and agree on mutually beneficial terms.

No One Can Win: The Necessary Resolution

Fighting fire with fire makes a giant flaming inferno that threatens to engulf us all, and if we don’t take care to put out the flames, we’ll all be burned.

It takes two sides to fight. There are other ways to fight than being offensive. There are ways to attack someone with tactical advantage, which doesn’t always mean brute force. The image of victimized indie devs is strong and meaningful, and when a war is presented in a certain way a la “propaganda”, it’s easy to choose who to fight for.

The worst thing is that both sides are pulling everyone into it. We’re gamers; most of us simply want to enjoy our games without being wrangled into an argument of morality.

Much of the community doesn’t want to fight in a petty, offensive battle with indie devs–gamers cherish indies, they’re the ones who bought them, played them, and supported the developers with Kickstarter dollars.

Nothing good is to come of this. A truce needs to be held; we’re better than this, as gamers, journalists and activists. Activism is more about blindly fighting for a cause, especially if the people you are fighting are other gamers who are responsible for much of the industry’s profits. And being a cynical gamer isn’t about circumventing personal data and publishing it online.

Change needs to be made, but these roads only lead to more corruption. Ignoring this problem and hoping it’ll just go away on its own won’t work.

Both sides need to acknowledge there’s a problem, and actively work towards a goal or the war will rage on.

And as we all know, war never changes.

  • What a whore.

    • Fishbag

      You’re not helping the issue with comments like this. You’re allowed to be angry but you should direct your anger at the bigger issue and not resort to petty name calling. This is what fuels the public to believe Zoe’s defenders, not the truth.

      • MattC95

        The definition of a whore is a prostitute. The definition of a prostitute is someone who trades sex for money or for other benefits. So yeah, to me and other people, Quinn is pretty much a whore.

        • Fishbag

          It’s really not about who she fucks. That’s not the point and you’re not helping the situation, you’re making it worse. Do you want the game industry to change or do you just want to anonymously shame/harass someone?

          • MattC95

            If it isn’t about “who she fucks”, then why are we even discussing journalistic corruption? So far, we know she fucked her boss (most likely to get her job), Nathan Grayson (for good reviews) and some other guy (who Eron quotes as dirty rich). So yup, my bad. We don’t need to discuss this whatsoever. She obviously didn’t use them at all, and there’s still 2 guys she probably didn’t use for her own gain.

          • le sigh

            1) “we know she fucked her boss (most likely to get her job)” false, she already had the job, so this is irrelevant.

            2) “Nathan Grayson (for good reviews)” except these reviews don’t exist, so this is also irrelevant.

            3) “So yup, my bad.” the only correct thing you’ve said.

          • MattC95

            1) There was no timeline given by Eron, even if there was, you’d seriously believe it? Nathan Grayson and his friend even lied about the timeline of the relationship.

            2) 3 good mentions existed. Only one of them remains available right now.

            3) Sarcasm.

          • le sigh

            1) what the hell…? are you essentially saying “screw all contrary reports, let me just believe whatever i want that fits my own narrative of events”? to be clear, even if it was definitive that she slept with him before getting the job, how the hell does that affect you in any way whatsoever or mean that she deserves the level of harassment she’s getting? boo hoo for eron he was duped by someone he knew repeatedly lied to him and cheated on him. it has absolutely NOTHING to do with “journalistic corruption”
            2) so now good reviews turns into good mentions. ok.
            3) …that doesn’t negate that it’s the only correct thing you’ve said…

          • Livnthedream

            Pretty much all of the reasonable people agree that she shouldn’t be getting harassed. The only times the whole lying/sleeping around part should even be mentioned is directly to calls of her being a reasonable source of her word being worth listening to. Or did you miss the Editor and Chief of Escapist clearly stating that they ran her claim of being harassed on her word alone? If you did, you can find that here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.858347-Zoe-Quinn-and-the-surrounding-controversy?page=31#21285187

            Really though, I see this as more of an entire industry thing where clearly we are being fed a whole hell of a lot more than just what games to buy. And that is a problem. This world that many of you want to live in, I do not and I would kindly ask you to stop trying to push it out there. If you can only have your utopia at the cost of mine, then fuck you.

          • MattC95

            Eron has an important part of this. After all, he started all of this by leaking all the things she has done. The fact that you think I’m saying “screw all contrary reports” is false, there are no goddamn reports. And no, it may not affect me, but overall if we ignore the fact she had sex with her boss, went into full length of trying to cover that up, then none of this stuff is right.

            This is the first time something like this has happened publicly, we really want to set an example here.

          • Livnthedream

            The sad thing is, it isn’t the first time its happened publicly, its just the first time that anyone has been really willing to listen, mostly because it has a fantastic click bait title. Unfortunately for most of those in the press, this isn’t the type of click bait they wanted.

            I find it funny that so many have compared Sarkeesian to the likes of Rosa Parks, when in reality Quinn has been a much better demonstration of setting off that spark.

          • Livnthedream

            Too many are getting lost on talking points as the situation develops and more dirt is dug up. The positive mentions by Grayson are pretty weak, but the various other contacts are not.

          • Ernesto Reyna

            Quoted from Eron’s post on thezoepost.wordpress.com “(In advance of any trilby-wearing e-sleuths, allow me to save you some
            time — yes, that means she was having sex with Josh Boggs right before
            he hired her.”

    • God ov Hover Hand

      Let’s try to keep comments like this to a minimal. The last thing we need is people trying to spin this into a feminism issue where gamers are on an anti-female crusade. Sooner or later, buzzwords like slut shaming and privilege and misogyny are going to rear their ugly head. Keep the spotlight on the nepotism and the hypocrisy.

      • Jon Stone

        Agreed. This is too important for the whole thing to be overtaken by angry people trying to find the ‘feminists are all hypocrites and sluts’ angle.

  • What a whore.

    • Fishbag

      You’re not helping the issue with comments like this. You’re allowed to be angry but you should direct your anger at the bigger issue and not resort to petty name calling. This is what fuels the public to believe Zoe’s defenders, not the truth.

      • MattC95

        The definition of a whore is a prostitute. The definition of a prostitute is someone who trades sex for money or for other benefits. So yeah, to me and other people, Quinn is pretty much a whore.

        • Fishbag

          It’s really not about who she fucks. That’s not the point and you’re not helping the situation, you’re making it worse. Do you want the game industry to change or do you just want to anonymously shame/harass someone?

          • MattC95

            If it isn’t about “who she fucks”, then why are we even discussing journalistic corruption? So far, we know she fucked her boss (most likely to get her job), Nathan Grayson (for good reviews) and some other guy (who Eron quotes as dirty rich). So yup, my bad. We don’t need to discuss this whatsoever. She obviously didn’t use them at all, and there’s still 2 guys she probably didn’t use for her own gain.

          • le sigh

            1) “we know she fucked her boss (most likely to get her job)” false, she already had the job, so this is irrelevant.

            2) “Nathan Grayson (for good reviews)” except these reviews don’t exist, so this is also irrelevant.

            3) “So yup, my bad.” the only correct thing you’ve said.

          • MattC95

            1) There was no timeline given by Eron, even if there was, you’d seriously believe it? Nathan Grayson and his friend even lied about the timeline of the relationship.

            2) 3 good mentions existed. Only one of them remains available right now.

            3) Sarcasm.

          • le sigh

            1) what the hell…? are you essentially saying “screw all contrary reports, let me just believe whatever i want that fits my own narrative of events”? to be clear, even if it was definitive that she slept with him before getting the job, how the hell does that affect you in any way whatsoever or mean that she deserves the level of harassment she’s getting? boo hoo for eron he was duped by someone he knew repeatedly lied to him and cheated on him. it has absolutely NOTHING to do with “journalistic corruption”
            2) so now good reviews turns into good mentions. ok.
            3) …that doesn’t negate that it’s the only correct thing you’ve said…

          • Livnthedream

            Pretty much all of the reasonable people agree that she shouldn’t be getting harassed. The only times the whole lying/sleeping around part should even be mentioned is directly to calls of her being a reasonable source of her word being worth listening to. Or did you miss the Editor and Chief of Escapist clearly stating that they ran her claim of being harassed on her word alone? If you did, you can find that here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.858347-Zoe-Quinn-and-the-surrounding-controversy?page=31#21285187

            Really though, I see this as more of an entire industry thing where clearly we are being fed a whole hell of a lot more than just what games to buy. And that is a problem. This world that many of you want to live in, I do not and I would kindly ask you to stop trying to push it out there. If you can only have your utopia at the cost of mine, then fuck you.

          • MattC95

            Eron has an important part of this. After all, he started all of this by leaking all the things she has done. The fact that you think I’m saying “screw all contrary reports” is false, there are no goddamn reports. And no, it may not affect me, but overall if we ignore the fact she had sex with her boss, went into full length of trying to cover that up, then none of this stuff is right.

            This is the first time something like this has happened publicly, we really want to set an example here.

          • Livnthedream

            The sad thing is, it isn’t the first time its happened publicly, its just the first time that anyone has been really willing to listen, mostly because it has a fantastic click bait title. Unfortunately for most of those in the press, this isn’t the type of click bait they wanted.

            I find it funny that so many have compared Sarkeesian to the likes of Rosa Parks, when in reality Quinn has been a much better demonstration of setting off that spark.

          • Livnthedream

            Too many are getting lost on talking points as the situation develops and more dirt is dug up. The positive mentions by Grayson are pretty weak, but the various other contacts are not.

          • Ernesto Reyna

            Quoted from Eron’s post on thezoepost.wordpress.com “(In advance of any trilby-wearing e-sleuths, allow me to save you some
            time — yes, that means she was having sex with Josh Boggs right before
            he hired her.”

    • God ov Hover Hand

      Let’s try to keep comments like this to a minimal. The last thing we need is people trying to spin this into a feminism issue where gamers are on an anti-female crusade. Sooner or later, buzzwords like slut shaming and privilege and misogyny are going to rear their ugly head. Keep the spotlight on the nepotism and the hypocrisy.

      • Jon Stone

        Agreed. This is too important for the whole thing to be overtaken by angry people trying to find the ‘feminists are all hypocrites and sluts’ angle.

  • Guest

    It’s the self-consuming media phenomenon. In cases like this, it stops being about the games and starts being about publicity and views. Now the gaming journalists are writing about gaming journalism, much like FOX and MSNBC hit the ball back-and-forth between each other. Indie developing is bloated fanfare at the moment, and it’s attracted some real bottom feeders. Zoe Quinn is simply at the center of their food chain at the moment.

  • Guest

    It’s the self-consuming media phenomenon. In cases like this, it stops being about the games and starts being about publicity and views. Now the gaming journalists are writing about gaming journalism, much like FOX and MSNBC hit the ball back-and-forth between each other. Indie developing is bloated fanfare at the moment, and it’s attracted some real bottom feeders. Zoe Quinn is simply at the center of their food chain at the moment.

  • Flying Pie

    nice article

  • Flying Pie

    nice article

  • Antonio Oliveri

    Thank you for being one of the only articles talking about it from our view. If anybody reads the comments on any website everybody agrees nobody cared she slept with 5 guys but we care about WHO she slept with and when. Even the hacking was fishy and proven a fake by other people on the internet and people are suggesting fill lied about it to get more publicity and want there to be an federal investigation of the hacking. Just the blatant mas banning and mod abuse that is going on is unprecedented and imagine if this happened in any other setting. Like if zoe was a political person. She would get fired at a mere allegation. Male devs got fired over “Sexist” comments even though it wasnt but bc of the outcry he got fired but now we are demanding zoe take responsibility but bc she is a women its ok for her apparently. There been videos about this but The fact that nobody got fired is unprecedented.

    • The problem is that this is supposed to be about journalistic integrity and the journalist who committed the impropriety is barely mentioned. Why isn’t this called Florencegate? As a game developer, and not a journalist, Quinn hasn’t committed any wrongdoing except being a woman in a public sphere that demonstrates continued hostility against females.

      • Morso Denutink

        Yes cause there is nothing wrong with sleeping with influential people in the gaming industry who then coincidentally gave you great reviews and exposure. Not everyone fears criticizing human beings that happen to have vaginas.

        • le sigh

          where are these great reviews that she got from sleeping with nathan grayson? oh, they don’t exist? wow, that completely throws a wrench into your argument, doesn’t it?

          • Livnthedream

            Its a misnomer that is getting slumped together with others, like Patricia Hernandez: http://i.imgur.com/5EqdfE5.jpg

            Still, its hard to argue that at least some of that influence hasn’t been spread around, even if it didn’t come directly from sleeping with someone. You shouldn’t be able to send an email (or a Tweet) and have a personal army at your beck and call.

          • taylor

            Are you so blinded by illiteracy that you can not gather the fact that sleeping with someone in that position is not a private matter when it revolves around your job?How about the boss she slept with giving her game an award? that is just coincidence to you? What about the other accusations and proven issues she has done and caused? Let me guess there is an excuse and a reason in that very deluded mind of yours? wait let me guess it is because every one hates women? let me explain something to your I would call a man who said what you said a dumb a+ss so I would call you one. Also being a woman is not an excuse so stop using it as one.

          • le sigh

            wow, so i shoot down one unfounded argument that someone claims, and that somehow means i’m illiterate and a dumbass? you’re clearly of an intelligence that isn’t to be trifled with.

          • taylor

            I actually am, And you shot it down with a smart-as undertone like you just debunked the entire cause. You know the foremothers of the cause that the feminists is claiming to be fighting for would be pissed off at the way these new age feminists are acting. They never intended for being a woman to be used as an excuse. and Grayson man not of reviewed her game but he did highlight it as a stand out which causes people to look at THAT game first. Before you follow something blindly or speak with an open mouth that has nothing but faulty facts in it you should better yourself and try to educate yourself completely on a subject as apposed to the half a+s parts you only want to defend.

          • le sigh

            in no particular order from your nonsense…1) you call me illiterate and a dumbass, yet your posts are riddled with spelling and grammatical errors.
            2) my logic is weak? yet you resort to sexist ad hominem.
            3) i shoot down one thing because it had no foundation to stand on, and you set up a straw man. “like you just debunked the entire cause”
            4) “speak with an open mouth” as opposed to speaking with a closed one?
            5) “try to educate yourself completely on a subject” please heed your own advice.
            6) “half a+s parts you only want to defend.” actually, i attacked, rather soundly, an argument that had no basis in reality, so… uhh, i didn’t defend anything.
            7) “I actually am” HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA, please educate yourself on sarcasm.
            8) “They never intended for being a woman to be used as an excuse.” “Grayson man not of reviewed her game but he did highlight it as a stand out which causes people to look at THAT game first.” “How about the boss she slept with giving her game an award?” amazing how you’re pinning the blame solely on the woman in this scenario and not the dudes that actually acted in the wrong here. she can sleep with whoever she wants, that’s her problem, THEY should be professional enough to not be so biased. incredible. they never intended for a woman to be used as an excuse… yet, you’re blaming her simply because she’s the woman.

      • Dave

        I would say partly because she’s the recurring link in all of these, i.e. if a male dev was doing this it would probably be named after the dev than any of the individual reporters.
        Also other people and information are coming out about her, TFYC Wizardchan etc.
        I’m not going to say that there ins’t unnecessary vitriol against women in the games industry, but I wouldn’t say that this is purely based on her sex either

        • Madeleine Odowichuk

          I dunno, I kinda get the feeling that if a male dev slept with a female reporter it would be the reporter receiving most of the vitirol.

      • taylor

        You have no idea what you are talking about I see.

      • John

        Well, Quinn made it blow up with her crashing of the TFYC Game Jam, false accusations of being harassed in order to gain press, and calling of favors from the gaming press….

      • taylor

        Let us guess you came in to say something dumb and then leave without replying to your rather ridiculous comment that spews out nothing but the fact you have no idea what you are talking about and follow people blindly instead of boldly having your own thoughts?

    • MAX

      I agree.

      In large, the community is up in arms over the feminist “double standard”, and how no one has been held accountable. The EIC at Kotaku sees nothing wrong, and has claimed no impropriety has taken place. Enjoy zero confidence Kotaku.

  • Antonio Oliveri

    Thank you for being one of the only articles talking about it from our view. If anybody reads the comments on any website everybody agrees nobody cared she slept with 5 guys but we care about WHO she slept with and when. Even the hacking was fishy and proven a fake by other people on the internet and people are suggesting fill lied about it to get more publicity and want there to be an federal investigation of the hacking. Just the blatant mas banning and mod abuse that is going on is unprecedented and imagine if this happened in any other setting. Like if zoe was a political person. She would get fired at a mere allegation. Male devs got fired over “Sexist” comments even though it wasnt but bc of the outcry he got fired but now we are demanding zoe take responsibility but bc she is a women its ok for her apparently. There been videos about this but The fact that nobody got fired is unprecedented.

    • The problem is that this is supposed to be about journalistic integrity and the journalist who committed the impropriety is barely mentioned. Why isn’t this called Florencegate? As a game developer, and not a journalist, Quinn hasn’t committed any wrongdoing except being a woman in a public sphere that demonstrates continued hostility against females.

      • Morso Denutink

        Yes cause there is nothing wrong with sleeping with influential people in the gaming industry who then coincidentally gave you great reviews and exposure. Not everyone fears criticizing human beings that happen to have vaginas.

        • le sigh

          where are these great reviews that she got from sleeping with nathan grayson? oh, they don’t exist? wow, that completely throws a wrench into your argument, doesn’t it?

          • Livnthedream

            Its a misnomer that is getting slumped together with others, like Patricia Hernandez: http://i.imgur.com/5EqdfE5.jpg

            Still, its hard to argue that at least some of that influence hasn’t been spread around, even if it didn’t come directly from sleeping with someone. You shouldn’t be able to send an email (or a Tweet) and have a personal army at your beck and call.

          • taylor

            Are you so blinded by illiteracy that you can not gather the fact that sleeping with someone in that position is not a private matter when it revolves around your job?How about the boss she slept with giving her game an award? that is just coincidence to you? What about the other accusations and proven issues she has done and caused? Let me guess there is an excuse and a reason in that very deluded mind of yours? wait let me guess it is because every one hates women? let me explain something to your I would call a man who said what you said a dumb a+ss so I would call you one. Also being a woman is not an excuse so stop using it as one.

          • le sigh

            wow, so i shoot down one unfounded argument that someone claims, and that somehow means i’m illiterate and a dumbass? you’re clearly of an intelligence that isn’t to be trifled with.

          • taylor

            I actually am, And you shot it down with a smart-as undertone like you just debunked the entire cause. You know the foremothers of the cause that the feminists is claiming to be fighting for would be pissed off at the way these new age feminists are acting. They never intended for being a woman to be used as an excuse. and Grayson man not of reviewed her game but he did highlight it as a stand out which causes people to look at THAT game first. Before you follow something blindly or speak with an open mouth that has nothing but faulty facts in it you should better yourself and try to educate yourself completely on a subject as apposed to the half a+s parts you only want to defend.

          • le sigh

            in no particular order from your nonsense…1) you call me illiterate and a dumbass, yet your posts are riddled with spelling and grammatical errors.
            2) my logic is weak? yet you resort to sexist ad hominem.
            3) i shoot down one thing because it had no foundation to stand on, and you set up a straw man. “like you just debunked the entire cause”
            4) “speak with an open mouth” as opposed to speaking with a closed one?
            5) “try to educate yourself completely on a subject” please heed your own advice.
            6) “half a+s parts you only want to defend.” actually, i attacked, rather soundly, an argument that had no basis in reality, so… uhh, i didn’t defend anything.
            7) “I actually am” HAHAHAHAHAHAHHA, please educate yourself on sarcasm.
            8) “They never intended for being a woman to be used as an excuse.” “Grayson man not of reviewed her game but he did highlight it as a stand out which causes people to look at THAT game first.” “How about the boss she slept with giving her game an award?” amazing how you’re pinning the blame solely on the woman in this scenario and not the dudes that actually acted in the wrong here. she can sleep with whoever she wants, that’s her problem, THEY should be professional enough to not be so biased. incredible. they never intended for a woman to be used as an excuse… yet, you’re blaming her simply because she’s the woman.

      • Dave

        I would say partly because she’s the recurring link in all of these, i.e. if a male dev was doing this it would probably be named after the dev than any of the individual reporters.
        Also other people and information are coming out about her, TFYC Wizardchan etc.
        I’m not going to say that there ins’t unnecessary vitriol against women in the games industry, but I wouldn’t say that this is purely based on her sex either

        • Madeleine Odowichuk

          I dunno, I kinda get the feeling that if a male dev slept with a female reporter it would be the reporter receiving most of the vitirol.

      • taylor

        You have no idea what you are talking about I see.

      • John

        Well, Quinn made it blow up with her crashing of the TFYC Game Jam, false accusations of being harassed in order to gain press, and calling of favors from the gaming press….

      • taylor

        Let us guess you came in to say something dumb and then leave without replying to your rather ridiculous comment that spews out nothing but the fact you have no idea what you are talking about and follow people blindly instead of boldly having your own thoughts?

    • MAX

      I agree.

      In large, the community is up in arms over the feminist “double standard”, and how no one has been held accountable. The EIC at Kotaku sees nothing wrong, and has claimed no impropriety has taken place. Enjoy zero confidence Kotaku.

  • Fiveguys

    You should discuss how everyone at 4chan agrees that they didn’t do the doxxing, and it asks more likely someone acting on their own accord. Considering the capital /V/ instead of /v/. (how it is actually referred to)

  • Fiveguys

    You should discuss how everyone at 4chan agrees that they didn’t do the doxxing, and it asks more likely someone acting on their own accord. Considering the capital /V/ instead of /v/. (how it is actually referred to)

  • Morso Denutink

    Excellent. Well done.

    Everyone should spread this article around ASAP. Especially because there is a very real possibility it will be taken down by the SJWs and Feminazi cancer within the gaming industry.

    • Jon Stone

      I hope you realise using the term ‘feminazi’ will immediately make anyone coming at this from a neutral point of view believe that the other side are right. Nobody can uses this term seriously should be taken seriously.

      • Snakes on a Car

        No, you’re just a pussy.

  • Morso Denutink

    Excellent. Well done.

    Everyone should spread this article around ASAP. Especially because there is a very real possibility it will be taken down by the SJWs and Feminazi cancer within the gaming industry.

    • Jon Stone

      I hope you realise using the term ‘feminazi’ will immediately make anyone coming at this from a neutral point of view believe that the other side are right. Nobody can uses this term seriously should be taken seriously.

      • Snakes on a Car

        No, you’re just a pussy.

  • ruleofthebrave

    Finally, an article that actually addresses the bigger issues instead of just iissuing the same old stale propaganda we have been force fed for years. Kudos to you people and keep up the good job.

    PS: you will probably be accused of misogyny for not pandering to the SJW’s.

  • ruleofthebrave

    Finally, an article that actually addresses the bigger issues instead of just iissuing the same old stale propaganda we have been force fed for years. Kudos to you people and keep up the good job.

    PS: you will probably be accused of misogyny for not pandering to the SJW’s.

  • keddren

    “When games journo Jeff Gerstmann delivered an honest review back in 2007, GameSpot –who had then acquired the gaming outlet Giant Bomb–fired him as a result of Eidos threatening to pull ad revenue due to the review’s low score.”

    That would be a neat trick considering Giant Bomb didn’t start until 2008.

  • keddren

    “When games journo Jeff Gerstmann delivered an honest review back in 2007, GameSpot –who had then acquired the gaming outlet Giant Bomb–fired him as a result of Eidos threatening to pull ad revenue due to the review’s low score.”

    That would be a neat trick considering Giant Bomb didn’t start until 2008.

  • K Pow

    You describe two issues that exist in current western society.

    1) Corporations drive media and public opinion – independent journalism will not exist as people dont need to pay for its content (they did in the past by purchasing a newspaper, whose revenue was not tied so much to advertising).

    2) Cultural marxism will, like all marxist ideas – ultimately fail. They seem warm and fuzzy as ideals, but implementation through moral intimidation will be inherently flawed – humans WILL not live in social entropy – someone will always break away from the pack. Cultural Marxists HAVE to stratify (in some way) in order to function – this results in privilege “whack a mole” where the most aggrieved has the biggest moral hammer. Once the aggrieved has the big hammer, they are the oppressors and another mole pops up.

    Zoe fell into this trap – being a SJW results in an exercise of power – power without a fundamental premise of anything other than bigotry against other groups that they see as privileged. NOBODY is anything more than human and flawed. Moral authority based on being a part of a codified “oppressed group” is in fact tyranny – Zoe tried to wield this moral power, but could not, – because she is human.

    • Morso Denutink

      Lets make more excuses for the shitty behavior of a woman just because she is a woman. The logic you used here can be used to excuse the actions of anyone that abuses power and influence.

      • K Pow

        I think you are missing my point – if you follow Marxist ideals, implementation of them is a FAIL. The SJW/Marxist approach is fundamentally and philosophically flawed. Without a question Zoe lacks any personal accountability nor moral compass – she is of the opinion like many western women that her mere existence gives her moral dominance. I absolutely think that she got what she deserved. My point is that SJW’s are taking on numerous irrational concepts of unfairness and thinking that they can address this through negating effects of privilege – however, once you start this process, you are in fact privileged and its easy to point this out to the SJW.

    • Jon Stone

      Sorry, this is just you indulging a weird vendetta against what you term ‘cultural Marxism’, but which isn’t really anything of the sort. It sounds like you’re angry that there is a movement to call for better representation in the gaming industry and want to twist this story into a ‘lesson’ that supports your own prejudices.

      Being an ‘SJW’ does not result in you getting power, nor does it make you an oppressor. If an ‘SJW’ is wrong, you can prove them wrong and make them look foolish with reasonable and well thought-out points. But the kind of people who get angry at and rant about these so-called ‘SJW’s are often incapable of making reasonable and well thought-out points, so instead claim they are being ‘oppressed’ or otherwise bullied, simply because their side of the argument doesn’t enjoy more support.

      Zoe Quinn has power for the same reason so many people have power – because of a talent for playing other people. Having a cause on the side doesn’t really add anything to this picture. Her ‘activist’ credentials are just a case of someone not practicing what they preach. It’s shameful to use this example as a way to try to sling mud at all activists.

      • K Pow

        Moral intimidation (power) without logical philosophical underpinnings is flawed.. One cannot legislate outcome. Social Entropy cannot be achieved. SJW are flawed once they take the first step.

        Its as flawed as my favorite graffiti “Anarchy Rules”

        • Jon Stone

          No one can morally intimidate you unless you know in your heart that they have a point. You belong to a species of person who riots against their own shame and guilt instead of owning it and overcoming it.

          If someone claims that right and good is on their side and they are wrong – either for practical or ethical reasons – this can be demonstrated, and they have no power over you.

          • Benjamin Ibbetson

            If the discussion was in a social vacuum, then of course you couldn’t be intimidated in any way. You would believe you’re right and your ‘opposition’ would believe they’re right.

            However this discussion involves many people and what generally happens when many people are involved is that the vocal majority bash the vocal minority, regardless of right or wrong. This happens time and time again throughout history regardless of the ‘practical or ethical reasons’ being demonstrated.

            And that’s exactly what’s been happening. As ill advised as the twitter tirade was, people have been trying to point out that there is a cancer in the industry and that Zoe is not the person she says she is. Proof has been provided of this. It’s easy to find and its implications obvious and yet it is still ignored under a veil of ‘sexism’ and ‘misogyny’.

          • BabaYaga

            You are absolutely right man. There is something in progress where people in power can just censor stuff because of the excuse, it contains sexism and misogyny. And i think Nobody needs a Quinn or an Anita -whatever- . They are just tools to fool us.

          • Jon Stone

            You’re correct that a vocal majority can bash a minority, but in this context there are vocal factions on all sides of the debate, with no clear majority.

            Also, this is more complex than something being ‘ignored’ because of accusations of sexism or misogyny. I agree that some individuals and sites have chosen to focus on the sexism/misogyny angle at the expense of real concerns about industry corruption. But you in turn must agree that this turn of events has been cynically pounced on by other individuals and commentators who have found an excuse to indulge their sexist/misogynistic impulses. After a quick look on Twitter, I even found a video someone has made hopefully declaring that this scandal might be the death knell for social activism in gaming.

            It’s only natural that some people will be more interested in the plentiful demonstrations of actual misogyny than in the underlying abusive behaviour evidenced.

          • Benjamin Ibbetson

            I do agree that ‘some’ people have used this as an excuse to attack. I said the ‘twitter tirade’ was ‘ill advised’ before. Perhaps I should have worded it more strongly but abusing someone is not the way to go. I refer specifically to the people who just hurled abuse; Voicing a differing opinion is not abuse. I’m not sure whether they are all misogynists; I think some people just like to see the world burn, not that that is an excuse mind you.

            The problem is that the actions of some are being used essentially as ‘evidence’ that the whole thing is about sexism, distracting from the actual issue of integrity within the gaming industry and journalism. Just because some people are idiots does not make this problem go away and by continuing to focus on sexism to the exclusion of everything else is the same as ignoring it. Accusing anyone and everyone that takes a different view as you as being misogynistic (which there is a demonstration of for every sexist comment out there) is the way this is being achieved and it’s not much better than the idiots hurling the abuse on twitter. Ironically it makes you look like a misandrist as well (I’m using ‘you’ in the collective sense rather than referring to you specifically. Don’t wanna imply I’m accusing you).

            You’re right in saying that it is more complex as one side has actively tried to censor the other’s opinion. The ‘SJW’ side, for want of a better term, have power they can exercise, abusing it to try and create a majority opinion for themselves, misinforming generally well meaning people in the process. This was presumably the original idea behind voicing things on twitter: at least there peoples voices can be heard without censorship for better or worse (probably worse in this case).

            I hope we can agree on these things:
            Sexism is wrong.
            You’re an idiot if you support people that think abuse is ok.
            You’re an idiot if you support people who do not conform to the moral position they enforce on others.
            You’re an idiot if you support people who exchange positive press for favours (of any kind).

          • Jon Stone

            Can I modify these points of agreement? I think it’s a bit harsh to always think of people as idiots, even if I often get cross and do this myself. There’s usually a more complicated explanation than idiocy, involving people’s cognitive biases and blind spots.

            And on the last point, I’m troubled by it, but it seems to be something completely normal in all industries. In this instance, Kotaku has investigated the matter, and Nathan had left RPS before the alleged relationship began.

          • Benjamin Ibbetson

            Fair enough, how about ‘misguided’ rather than ‘an idiot’?

            I think you’re right in that it is normal. As the article points there are other instances favours changing hands as well as censorship. But that’s what some people are so riled up about. It shouldn’t be normal.

          • The Nuetral Planet

            ” You belong to a species of person who riots against their own shame and guilt instead of owning it and overcoming it.” Did you even read this in in your head before typing it? A species isa group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding. Nothing to do with what you wrote. And right and wrong is dependent on your views, thier is no good side. Justice is not a literal being but a subjective idea. And bad people and ideas can have power over you ever heard of the nazis and american slavery? Just stop being so biased and look at it from a unbiased point of view guy.

          • Guest

            Are you f+cking stupid? Right or Wrong s dependent on your views? wow that is literally the dumbest thing I have ever read so thank you for that.

          • Benjamin Ibbetson

            While some things are obvious (ummm, killing is bad mmmkay?) there are many things that are considered bad or good because that’s what people collectively consider acceptable.

            That’s why you need movements such as feminism in the first place to change our views of right and wrong. Once upon a time smoking was upheld as great. It was even said to be good for your health. In the UK now, smoking is generally considered wrong because societies view of what’s right and wrong changed in light of evidence and informed discussion.
            The legalisation of weed is an example of something that’s in a grey area where some people believe it’s right and some believe it’s wrong.

            Although I said some things are obvious above, there are many example in history of things we would consider abhorrent being considered acceptable; it was generally accepted in ancient Greece that a teacher would have sex with their pupil; the holocaust, need I say more? It’s only obvious to us now because of what happened in the past and how this changed our perceptions.

            In other words, Dave’s comment isn’t stupid at all.

          • Jon Stone

            “A species isa group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding.”

            I’m not really sure how we’re going to successfully communicate with each other when you have trouble with figurative language.

            I mean, part of what you say about justice and morality is right, but you’re oversimplifying it. These are social constructs, which are different from completely subjective concepts. Otherwise we wouldn’t have a legal system.

        • Jon Stone

          As for your theories about ‘social entropy’, it sounds to me like you’re misunderstanding what other people want to achieve through their activism. Our culture has made great progress towards various kinds of equality, and there’s no reason to not continue pursuing that agenda.

          • K Pow

            True – equity under the law for each individual is a great thing – and we have made great strides. However, SJW or Cultural equity cannot be achieved through legislation or that legislation is inherently flawed. Therefore, your only lever is moral intimidation and shame to produce an outcome to a wide spectrum and collection of unfairness. This is the conundrum. SJW need to come up with a non Marxist (ergo adjust for outcome) philosophy, or the SJW are in fact the oppressors.

          • Jon Stone

            To be an oppressor requires some form of power over the oppressee. Are you seriously arguing that merely by dint of donning the identity of an ‘SJW’ someone magically acquires power over another individual?

            All legislation is inherently flawed – that’s why it is continuously tweeked and adjusted. Legislation doesn’t ‘achieve’ cultural equity, but is one mechanism that encourages it.

          • K Pow

            Legislation cannot achieve cultural equality – correct. Legislation can however achieve legal equality of opportunity.

            SJW’s look for equality of opportunity AND equality of outcome – their “power” is moral intimidation through connotations of privilege. This is nothing new – it is Marxism within the culture. Dont confuse compassion with equality of outcome btw. The two are different things. Compassion is a beautiful thing.

            The former soviet union attempted to achieve equality of outcome. They had re-education camps, gulags and even firing squads for the most dissident. Social Entropy is not achievable. SJW’s are to be revered in their ideals, but are flawed in their approaches. I appreciate compassion and work in an arena of compassion. However, I see SJW’s as nice people with great aspirations for the culture, however, the moral intimidation attempted to be utilized to produce this outcome is fundamentally flawed in that moral intimidation is social oppression based on whatever category you are found to be a part of by the SJW.

    • babayaga

      Hey… nobody cares about that SJW nonsense. No gamer with a gamepad in his hands or punshing WASD wants to hear that crap. Zoe has neither credibility in gaming nor anything contributed. She is a pandoras box for non wanted stupidity in the gaming scene called social issues!

      Now good bye and play games instead of talking about …. !

      • K Pow

        I only agree – im simply stating why this exists and why it fails – its not misogyny, but a logical flaw.

        • BabaYaga

          Yeah ok. But i would love to see that the gaming scene keeps away from all that social and political stuff. At least this place should be clean. But i get your point 😉

    • LookAtThisIdiot

      This idiot has literally no idea what Marxism even is. Go back to Return of the Kings kid.

      • K Pow

        Great retort! You are an amazing genius! Did you spent the whole night coming up with that one? Oh ROK does not interest me as a woman.

        • Linda M

          Yeah. ROK is to men’s rights what Jezebel is to any real feminist: an embarrassment whom you wish would shut the hell up already and go find something productive to do with their lives.

          It’s funny that internet feminists consider it a real smear, but then, they consider Jezebel to be a real magazine.

  • K Pow

    You describe two issues that exist in current western society.

    1) Corporations drive media and public opinion – independent journalism will not exist as people dont need to pay for its content (they did in the past by purchasing a newspaper, whose revenue was not tied so much to advertising).

    2) Cultural marxism will, like all marxist ideas – ultimately fail. They seem warm and fuzzy as ideals, but implementation through moral intimidation will be inherently flawed – humans WILL not live in social entropy – someone will always break away from the pack. Cultural Marxists HAVE to stratify (in some way) in order to function – this results in privilege “whack a mole” where the most aggrieved has the biggest moral hammer. Once the aggrieved has the big hammer, they are the oppressors and another mole pops up.

    Zoe fell into this trap – being a SJW results in an exercise of power – power without a fundamental premise of anything other than bigotry against other groups that they see as privileged. NOBODY is anything more than human and flawed. Moral authority based on being a part of a codified “oppressed group” is in fact tyranny – Zoe tried to wield this moral power, but could not, – because she is human.

    • Morso Denutink

      Lets make more excuses for the shitty behavior of a woman just because she is a woman. The logic you used here can be used to excuse the actions of anyone that abuses power and influence.

      • K Pow

        I think you are missing my point – if you follow Marxist ideals, implementation of them is a FAIL. The SJW/Marxist approach is fundamentally and philosophically flawed. Without a question Zoe lacks any personal accountability nor moral compass – she is of the opinion like many western women that her mere existence gives her moral dominance. I absolutely think that she got what she deserved. My point is that SJW’s are taking on numerous irrational concepts of unfairness and thinking that they can address this through negating effects of privilege – however, once you start this process, you are in fact privileged and its easy to point this out to the SJW.

    • Jon Stone

      Sorry, this is just you indulging a weird vendetta against what you term ‘cultural Marxism’, but which isn’t really anything of the sort. It sounds like you’re angry that there is a movement to call for better representation in the gaming industry and want to twist this story into a ‘lesson’ that supports your own prejudices.

      Being an ‘SJW’ does not result in you getting power, nor does it make you an oppressor. If an ‘SJW’ is wrong, you can prove them wrong and make them look foolish with reasonable and well thought-out points. But the kind of people who get angry at and rant about these so-called ‘SJW’s are often incapable of making reasonable and well thought-out points, so instead claim they are being ‘oppressed’ or otherwise bullied, simply because their side of the argument doesn’t enjoy more support.

      Zoe Quinn has power for the same reason so many people have power – because of a talent for playing other people. Having a cause on the side doesn’t really add anything to this picture. Her ‘activist’ credentials are just a case of someone not practicing what they preach. It’s shameful to use this example as a way to try to sling mud at all activists.

      • K Pow

        Moral intimidation (power) without logical philosophical underpinnings is flawed.. One cannot legislate outcome. Social Entropy cannot be achieved. SJW are flawed once they take the first step.

        Its as flawed as my favorite graffiti “Anarchy Rules”

        • Jon Stone

          No one can morally intimidate you unless you know in your heart that they have a point. You belong to a species of person who riots against their own shame and guilt instead of owning it and overcoming it.

          If someone claims that right and good is on their side and they are wrong – either for practical or ethical reasons – this can be demonstrated, and they have no power over you.

          • Benjamin Ibbetson

            If the discussion was in a social vacuum, then of course you couldn’t be intimidated in any way. You would believe you’re right and your ‘opposition’ would believe they’re right.

            However this discussion involves many people and what generally happens when many people are involved is that the vocal majority bash the vocal minority, regardless of right or wrong. This happens time and time again throughout history regardless of the ‘practical or ethical reasons’ being demonstrated.

            And that’s exactly what’s been happening. As ill advised as the twitter tirade was, people have been trying to point out that there is a cancer in the industry and that Zoe is not the person she says she is. Proof has been provided of this. It’s easy to find and its implications obvious and yet it is still ignored under a veil of ‘sexism’ and ‘misogyny’.

          • BabaYaga

            You are absolutely right man. There is something in progress where people in power can just censor stuff because of the excuse, it contains sexism and misogyny. And i think Nobody needs a Quinn or an Anita -whatever- . They are just tools to fool us.

          • Jon Stone

            You’re correct that a vocal majority can bash a minority, but in this context there are vocal factions on all sides of the debate, with no clear majority.

            Also, this is more complex than something being ‘ignored’ because of accusations of sexism or misogyny. I agree that some individuals and sites have chosen to focus on the sexism/misogyny angle at the expense of real concerns about industry corruption. But you in turn must agree that this turn of events has been cynically pounced on by other individuals and commentators who have found an excuse to indulge their sexist/misogynistic impulses. After a quick look on Twitter, I even found a video someone has made hopefully declaring that this scandal might be the death knell for social activism in gaming.

            It’s only natural that some people will be more interested in the plentiful demonstrations of actual misogyny than in the underlying abusive behaviour evidenced.

          • Benjamin Ibbetson

            I do agree that ‘some’ people have used this as an excuse to attack. I said the ‘twitter tirade’ was ‘ill advised’ before. Perhaps I should have worded it more strongly but abusing someone is not the way to go. I refer specifically to the people who just hurled abuse; Voicing a differing opinion is not abuse. I’m not sure whether they are all misogynists; I think some people just like to see the world burn, not that that is an excuse mind you.

            The problem is that the actions of some are being used essentially as ‘evidence’ that the whole thing is about sexism, distracting from the actual issue of integrity within the gaming industry and journalism. Just because some people are idiots does not make this problem go away and by continuing to focus on sexism to the exclusion of everything else is the same as ignoring it. Accusing anyone and everyone that takes a different view as you as being misogynistic (which there is a demonstration of for every sexist comment out there) is the way this is being achieved and it’s not much better than the idiots hurling the abuse on twitter. Ironically it makes you look like a misandrist as well (I’m using ‘you’ in the collective sense rather than referring to you specifically. Don’t wanna imply I’m accusing you).

            You’re right in saying that it is more complex as one side has actively tried to censor the other’s opinion. The ‘SJW’ side, for want of a better term, have power they can exercise, abusing it to try and create a majority opinion for themselves, misinforming generally well meaning people in the process. This was presumably the original idea behind voicing things on twitter: at least there peoples voices can be heard without censorship for better or worse (probably worse in this case).

            I hope we can agree on these things:
            Sexism is wrong.
            You’re an idiot if you support people that think abuse is ok.
            You’re an idiot if you support people who do not conform to the moral position they enforce on others.
            You’re an idiot if you support people who exchange positive press for favours (of any kind).

          • Jon Stone

            Can I modify these points of agreement? I think it’s a bit harsh to always think of people as idiots, even if I often get cross and do this myself. There’s usually a more complicated explanation than idiocy, involving people’s cognitive biases and blind spots.

            And on the last point, I’m troubled by it, but it seems to be something completely normal in all industries. In this instance, Kotaku has investigated the matter, and Nathan had left RPS before the alleged relationship began.

          • Benjamin Ibbetson

            Fair enough, how about ‘misguided’ rather than ‘an idiot’?

            I think you’re right in that it is normal. As the article points there are other instances favours changing hands as well as censorship. But that’s what some people are so riled up about. It shouldn’t be normal.

          • The Nuetral Planet

            ” You belong to a species of person who riots against their own shame and guilt instead of owning it and overcoming it.” Did you even read this in in your head before typing it? A species isa group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding. Nothing to do with what you wrote. And right and wrong is dependent on your views, thier is no good side. Justice is not a literal being but a subjective idea. And bad people and ideas can have power over you ever heard of the nazis and american slavery? Just stop being so biased and look at it from a unbiased point of view guy.

          • Guest

            Are you f+cking stupid? Right or Wrong s dependent on your views? wow that is literally the dumbest thing I have ever read so thank you for that.

          • Benjamin Ibbetson

            While some things are obvious (ummm, killing is bad mmmkay?) there are many things that are considered bad or good because that’s what people collectively consider acceptable.

            That’s why you need movements such as feminism in the first place to change our views of right and wrong. Once upon a time smoking was upheld as great. It was even said to be good for your health. In the UK now, smoking is generally considered wrong because societies view of what’s right and wrong changed in light of evidence and informed discussion.
            The legalisation of weed is an example of something that’s in a grey area where some people believe it’s right and some believe it’s wrong.

            Although I said some things are obvious above, there are many example in history of things we would consider abhorrent being considered acceptable; it was generally accepted in ancient Greece that a teacher would have sex with their pupil; the holocaust, need I say more? It’s only obvious to us now because of what happened in the past and how this changed our perceptions.

            In other words, Dave’s comment isn’t stupid at all.

          • Jon Stone

            “A species isa group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding.”

            I’m not really sure how we’re going to successfully communicate with each other when you have trouble with figurative language.

            I mean, part of what you say about justice and morality is right, but you’re oversimplifying it. These are social constructs, which are different from completely subjective concepts. Otherwise we wouldn’t have a legal system.

        • Jon Stone

          As for your theories about ‘social entropy’, it sounds to me like you’re misunderstanding what other people want to achieve through their activism. Our culture has made great progress towards various kinds of equality, and there’s no reason to not continue pursuing that agenda.

          • K Pow

            True – equity under the law for each individual is a great thing – and we have made great strides. However, SJW or Cultural equity cannot be achieved through legislation or that legislation is inherently flawed. Therefore, your only lever is moral intimidation and shame to produce an outcome to a wide spectrum and collection of unfairness. This is the conundrum. SJW need to come up with a non Marxist (ergo adjust for outcome) philosophy, or the SJW are in fact the oppressors.

          • Jon Stone

            To be an oppressor requires some form of power over the oppressee. Are you seriously arguing that merely by dint of donning the identity of an ‘SJW’ someone magically acquires power over another individual?

            All legislation is inherently flawed – that’s why it is continuously tweeked and adjusted. Legislation doesn’t ‘achieve’ cultural equity, but is one mechanism that encourages it.

          • K Pow

            Legislation cannot achieve cultural equality – correct. Legislation can however achieve legal equality of opportunity.

            SJW’s look for equality of opportunity AND equality of outcome – their “power” is moral intimidation through connotations of privilege. This is nothing new – it is Marxism within the culture. Dont confuse compassion with equality of outcome btw. The two are different things. Compassion is a beautiful thing.

            The former soviet union attempted to achieve equality of outcome. They had re-education camps, gulags and even firing squads for the most dissident. Social Entropy is not achievable. SJW’s are to be revered in their ideals, but are flawed in their approaches. I appreciate compassion and work in an arena of compassion. However, I see SJW’s as nice people with great aspirations for the culture, however, the moral intimidation attempted to be utilized to produce this outcome is fundamentally flawed in that moral intimidation is social oppression based on whatever category you are found to be a part of by the SJW.

    • babayaga

      Hey… nobody cares about that SJW nonsense. No gamer with a gamepad in his hands or punshing WASD wants to hear that crap. Zoe has neither credibility in gaming nor anything contributed. She is a pandoras box for non wanted stupidity in the gaming scene called social issues!

      Now good bye and play games instead of talking about …. !

      • K Pow

        I only agree – im simply stating why this exists and why it fails – its not misogyny, but a logical flaw.

        • BabaYaga

          Yeah ok. But i would love to see that the gaming scene keeps away from all that social and political stuff. At least this place should be clean. But i get your point 😉

    • LookAtThisIdiot

      This idiot has literally no idea what Marxism even is. Go back to Return of the Kings kid.

      • K Pow

        Great retort! You are an amazing genius! Did you spent the whole night coming up with that one? Oh ROK does not interest me as a woman.

        • Linda M

          Yeah. ROK is to men’s rights what Jezebel is to any real feminist: an embarrassment whom you wish would shut the hell up already and go find something productive to do with their lives.

          It’s funny that internet feminists consider it a real smear, but then, they consider Jezebel to be a real magazine.

  • Scazza

    It’s too bad this article won’t reach enough people for it to matter. The games industry has been a sad place for the past few years.

    • Jon Stone

      Let’s not exaggerate. Gaze into the abyss and it gazes back. The periphery of game culture is still a fine place to be – we get fine games to play for incredibly cheap prices, indie devs are knocking up interesting work in their bedrooms again, and there’s a lot of interesting discussion to be had.

      Phil Fish may be a colossal prat, but I still loved Fez and would recommend people have a crack at it.

  • Scazza

    It’s too bad this article won’t reach enough people for it to matter. The games industry has been a sad place for the past few years.

    • Jon Stone

      Let’s not exaggerate. Gaze into the abyss and it gazes back. The periphery of game culture is still a fine place to be – we get fine games to play for incredibly cheap prices, indie devs are knocking up interesting work in their bedrooms again, and there’s a lot of interesting discussion to be had.

      Phil Fish may be a colossal prat, but I still loved Fez and would recommend people have a crack at it.

  • Lemoncakes

    Thank you for making a not-terrible article about this issue.

    Still a bit disappointed there was no discussion of “The Fine Young Capitalists” and their importance in the story, feels like absolutely nobody is mentioning them when what they’ve been forced to go through is a big part of the anger coming from groups like 4chan.

  • Lemoncakes

    Thank you for making a not-terrible article about this issue.

    Still a bit disappointed there was no discussion of “The Fine Young Capitalists” and their importance in the story, feels like absolutely nobody is mentioning them when what they’ve been forced to go through is a big part of the anger coming from groups like 4chan.

  • BabaYaga

    One thing for me stands out and that is the point that Quinn is not a game developer. She did one “interactive book” and thats it and now everyone talks about her as if she has any value to anything related in our lovely gaming scene. I am so long into that and she has nothing contributed as the one thing above and now she and others claim, we have a real problem with sexism. WTF. is wrong actually ? We should forget Quinn and all that SJW idiots and thats it. Games are for the fun. Games are for entertainment and games dont need selfish wannabe self declared devs who are nothing but useless people here. Sorry to say but this is all political and has nothing to do with gaming realy. And censorship is bad, very bad! We should be cautious about that. We dont want to have north korean censorship sometime just because someone “up-there” doesnt like whats being talked about!

    And good article btw. ONe of the few good reads about this.

  • BabaYaga

    One thing for me stands out and that is the point that Quinn is not a game developer. She did one “interactive book” and thats it and now everyone talks about her as if she has any value to anything related in our lovely gaming scene. I am so long into that and she has nothing contributed as the one thing above and now she and others claim, we have a real problem with sexism. WTF. is wrong actually ? We should forget Quinn and all that SJW idiots and thats it. Games are for the fun. Games are for entertainment and games dont need selfish wannabe self declared devs who are nothing but useless people here. Sorry to say but this is all political and has nothing to do with gaming realy. And censorship is bad, very bad! We should be cautious about that. We dont want to have north korean censorship sometime just because someone “up-there” doesnt like whats being talked about!

    And good article btw. ONe of the few good reads about this.

  • Ben (Broken)

    Most people will not argue with common decency. Very few people in western civilization believe that women should not be able to drive, work, own property, run for office, or be treated with respect so long as they give respect in return.

    Society is so progressive I think new-wave social justice and new wave feminism had to “make up’ new monsters to keep relevant. Are you a man that likes sexy depictions of women in comics or videogames that are scantily clad and in sexually suggestive poses? You sexist misogynist! Why aren’t you rallying against the patriarchy?! I’m sorry, but men being aroused by depictions of attractive women is basic biology and as a whole harmless fantasy escapism.

    Then there’s white privilege, this belief whites are a genetically superior conqueror race that come with 1,001 built in special perks and benefits who should be held accountable for their billions of nefarious collective misdeeds. I’m sorry, but we have our poor, downtrodden, and destitute too. A very small minority of whites live in pearly gated communities and nice suburbs. Most of us are struggling lower middle class or impoverished just like everyone else. I’m not saying racism does not exist but I am saying it is possible to even be racist against white people. It’s so odd to see comments like “Die whitey, die!” yet sjws will pretend such nasty sentiments towards whites simply do not exist or worse, are somehow justified. Lastly, the practice of blaming people in the present who had nothing to do with the past for atrocities done before they were born is unfair and stupid. For the record, I’d have a problem with this smear campaign if it was called “Black privilege” “Latino privilege” or “Asian privilege” too. It would be the exact same bullshit hate speech targeting a different group of people to become the new scapegoat. It’s wrong no matter who the arrow points at. Even if you so happen to avoid the bullet of being white people can still shout you down for cis privilege, able bodied privilege, or thin privilege. What is this, the friggin oppression Olympics? Should any of us be “proud” of victim hood?

    But worst still, “gamers” are looked down on as a whole. Race and gender are irrelevant, if we do not agree with “the morally superior gaming press” we are targeted as women hating racist pedophiliac swine who live in our parents basement. If that is not worse enough they also target developers. Remember the accusations of Kojima being misogynistic because of Quiet’s character model? Remember when Kat Bailey compared Lords Of Shadow 2 to Rape-lay just because Dracula fed on a woman? Remember when Kotaku and Polygon attacked Dragon’s crown just because the sorceress had large breasts? How about the uproar of Lara Croft getting “raped” when in the actual new Tombraider no such event even happened? This is not real journalism. This is holding gamers and developers under the threat of slander if they do not play along.

    Even excluding the Zoe Quinn scandal we’ve put up with a lot of mistreatment.

    • Jon Stone

      This is a reiteration of your own misgivings that hasn’t really got much to do with the issues at hands. But for what it’s worth, you completely misunderstand (intentionally?) the feminist/activist argument. I’ve always found their points to be well made, and never felt that I’ve been monstered by feminist arguments just for being a man.

      I’m familiar with most of the incidents you reference, and it seems to me you’re just not putting in the effort to understand the actual arguments that were made. Instead, you’re making up your own monster (or straw man) to have something to hate on – doing exactly what you accuse feminists of.

      • Gregg Braddoch

        “Instead, you’re making up your own monster (or straw man) to have something to hate on – doing exactly what you accuse feminists of.”

        Oh you mean like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q

        Despite the number of innacuracies? I think people like Sarkeesian and others make it very clear that they want exactly what Ben is saying.

        • Jon Stone

          I’ve seen that already. And no, it doesn’t line up remotely with how it is then ‘summarised’ by Ben, and you, and others. All of the points she makes seem reasonable to me when you’re not straining to find ways to interpret them as problematic.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “I’ve seen that already. And no, it doesn’t line up remotely with how it is then ‘summarised’ by Ben, and you, and others. ”

            Not ‘summarised’, but then not even summarized, but fully shown to be a pack of lies, and cherry picked examples. (And a huge donation to the Sarkeesian ‘make me famous’ fund, where she spent tens of thousands of dollars ‘making’ a couple short videos that I could have made for $100)

          • Jon Stone

            I’ve heard these criticisms before too. They aren’t borne out. I’m not a particular fan of Sarkeesian and find her presentation style bland, but to anyone coming at the conflict between her and people like you from a neutral point of view, your reaction looks hysterical. Why do you care that people voluntarily gave her money for a project that may well have cost less? Have any of them complained about being defrauded? If not, your complaint is absurd.

            ‘Cherry-picked examples’ is a legitimate way to make a case as to the commonality of something. This objection makes no sense. As for the ‘lies’ – what lies? I should say at this point that I sat through a half hour youtube rant supposedly taking Sarkeesian to task for this video, and then the reply to that rant by another youtuber. The guy making the original rant was consummately shown to be wilfully misinterpreting and glossing everything said in Sarkeesian’s video. It was an exercise in being completely obtuse. I think that’s what you’re engaging in too.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “I’ve heard these criticisms before too. They aren’t borne out.”

            Yeah, it’s not like she has factual errors throughout her videos, oh wait she does.

            “but to anyone coming at the conflict between her and people like you from a neutral point of view, your reaction looks hysterical.”

            Yeah, that’s just a veiled ad hominem attack, nothing more.

            “‘Cherry-picked examples’ is a legitimate way to make a case as to the commonality of something.”

            Not really. It’s more a way to make things that are less common appear more common. That is dishonest.

            ” As for the ‘lies’ – what lies?”

            If you cannot watch the videos to see the lies, then I will not repeat them here. But generally, it is equating cherry picked examples as the norm in video games.

            “The guy making the original rant was consummately shown to be wilfully misinterpreting and glossing everything said in Sarkeesian’s video.”

            Heh, because there was only one video ever made criticizing Tropes vs. Women in video games. You like cherry-picking almost as much as sarkeesian.

            ” It was an exercise in being completely obtuse. I think that’s what you’re engaging in too.”

            And there’s the same faulty generalization that Sarkeesian uses. Nice to know that you appreciate using logical fallacies to make your point. “Lets pick specific examples that match our viewpoint, and then use them to say that these examples are the norm.” is your particular brand of reasoning. No wonder you defend Sarkeesian.

          • Jon Stone

            “But generally, it is equating cherry picked examples as the norm in video games.”

            No, that’s fundamentally not a lie. It’s an impression deployed as an argument. So you were exaggerating and painting it out to be worse than it is.

            “Yeah, that’s just a veiled ad hominem attack, nothing more…”

            No, ‘ad hominem’ would be a personal criticism of you, not your particular reaction to a situation. I’m sorry, but being furious over someone being given money voluntarily by people who like their work qualifies as a hysterical overreaction in my book.

            “And there’s the same faulty generalization …”

            I didn’t use a generalisation. I referred to a particular example and said I thought you were engaging in the same activity. That is not a generalisation. You are using words incorrectly.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “No, that’s fundamentally not a lie.”

            Well I’m glad that you don’t equate dishonesty with lying. But that is all good.

            “No, ‘ad hominem’ would be a personal criticism of you, not your particular reaction to a situation. ”

            It’s a criticism made to discredit someone. That is your point. If I said “you’re being hysterical” in response to a statement, that would be an ad hominem.

            “I didn’t use a generalisation. I referred to a particular example and said I thought you were engaging in the same activity. That is not a generalisation. ”

            Generalization: “a general statement or concept obtained by inference from specific cases.” It is absolutely generalization. This is like you saying “you act just like those hipster kids.”

            “You are using words incorrectly.”

            LOL.

        • BabaYaga

          She is the biggest idiot in gaming history. She craweld into it and soon being a little bit prominent pointed out how everything is sexist and actualy sucks. She is definately one of the freaks who make look games more worse then all these politicians trying to label FPS games as KILLER creating games.

          • Rich

            How about maybe at some point trying to understand the critique before answering it? Might seem more legit?

    • le sigh

      “Are you a man that likes sexy depictions of women in comics or videogames that are scantily clad and in sexually suggestive poses? You sexist misogynist!” idk what the hell kind of feminists you’re referring to, but that’s a typical straw man argument. i have never met a single feminist that would ever say anything as idiotic as that.

      ” yet sjws will pretend such nasty sentiments towards whites simply do not exist or worse, are somehow justified.” i don’t know any “SJW” that would say something like that either. another example of a straw man.

      “But worst still, “gamers” are looked down on as a whole.” think about that for a few minutes and apply that to everything you’re saying. you’re generalizing entire groups of people based on straw men. even if the most extreme feminists or racists or sjws fell into your descriptions, why does that somehow apply to ALL of them? did you actually look into any of these specific examples that you’ve given, or did you just hand wave them away as nonsense? because it seems much more the latter than the former. it may help for you to dig a little deeper and understand exactly what you’re arguing against.

      “Most people will not argue with common decency.” and that’s exactly what “feminists” and “sjws” want… some equality and decency and respect. if it’s not that unreasonable to you… then i don’t see why you have such a problem with them.

      • BabaYaga

        God damnit… go away with your inner conflicts and talk to alice in wonderland. This is gaming you know. Shoot shoot zombie dead bang bang flash… and now get lost. No one wants you, no one even needs you here!

        The only importance you have is to move on and let games be games

        • Jon Stone

          “This is gaming you know. Shoot shoot zombie dead bang bang flash… and now get lost.”

          I think you might be confusing all of gaming with zombie games.

      • Livnthedream

        “idk what the hell kind of feminists you’re referring to, but that’s a
        typical straw man argument. i have never met a single feminist that
        would ever say anything as idiotic as that.”

        Meet Zoe Quinn, the woman who defines cheating on your SO and not telling them as rape.

        “i don’t know any “SJW” that would say something like that either. another example of a straw man.”

        How about these then? http://i.imgur.com/K0AS56x.png
        http://i.4cdn.org/v/1408769306287.jpg

        “even if the most extreme feminists or racists or sjws fell into your descriptions, why does that somehow apply to ALL of them?”

        Which is exactly the issue with demonizing either side based on the extremists of either. The issue is the media is pushing the extremist angle because it gets them money, even if many of them clearly do not actually believe in it based on their actions.

        “Most people will not argue with common decency.” and that’s exactly what “feminists” and “sjws” want… some equality and decency and respect. if it’s not that unreasonable to you… then i don’t see why you have such a problem with them.

        That is the issue at hand in general methinks. What one side is deeming reasonable, the other does not. Like the misuse of gaming statistics to push an agenda of “Equality” and constantly shifting goal posts.

        • Jon Stone

          There’s only one of those comments that’s remotely troubling, unless you’re looking at it through your special ‘Feminists are evil’ glasses.

        • le sigh

          you’re not describing feminists. those are not examples of feminists. you’re pointing to misandrists and clueless assholes and saying “look at these feminists”. the fundamentals of feminism are not about denigrating men. it is not about knocking down a society with patriarchal tendencies and substituting it with a matriarchal one.

          “What one side is deeming reasonable, the other does not.”
          specifics, please?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Unreasonable: Complaining about spiderwoman being posed a certain way, because it’s ‘sexist’ when she is in a typical spiderman pose.

            Unreasonable: Complaining that there are not enough female protagonists when there are literally hundreds of games with either both genders as protagonist or female protagonists only. Further unreasonable when criticizing the looks of these female protagonists: Either too boring, or “sexist”

          • Jon Stone

            “Complaining about spiderwoman being posed a certain way, because it’s ‘sexist’ when she is in a typical spiderman pose.”

            She wasn’t though, was she? Come on. Try harder.

            “Complaining that there are not enough female protagonists when there are literally hundreds of games with either both genders as protagonist or female protagonists only.”

            Are you seriously, seriously telling me that the proportion of male to female characters and protagonists is remotely close to 50/50? If not, how is it unreasonable to want better representation?

            “Further unreasonable when criticizing the looks of these female protagonists: Either too boring, or “sexist””

            But that’s not what’s criticised.

            So none of what you’ve listed is unreasonable. What’s unreasonable is not listening to or considering properly criticisms and complaints that are made because you’re too eager to dismiss them because the problems alleged, if true, don’t affect you.

            So that’s you then. YOU are not being reasonable.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “She wasn’t though, was she? Come on. Try harder.”

            I’m not even sure that was a complete sentence, however she was posed exactly as spiderman had been posed in the past.

            Article bitching about it:
            http://www.elle.com/news/culture/spider-woman-comic-book

            Picture showing spiderman in the same pose:
            http://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/10583949_10152367965345835_5481620032236656223_n-1.jpg

            “Are you seriously, seriously telling me that the proportion of male to female characters and protagonists is remotely close to 50/50? If not, how is it unreasonable to want better representation?”

            Well there are numerous problems with your question, but lets just ignore most of them, and ask: Is it a problem if video games don’t have a 50/50 divide on protagonists by gender?

            Second, I will state that wanting games that have a female protagonist is just fine, go ahead and make some. Nobody is stopping you.

            “So none of what you’ve listed is unreasonable. What’s unreasonable is not listening or considering properly criticisms and complaints that are made because you’re too eager to dismiss them because the problems alleged, if true, don’t affect you.”

            No, what is unreasonable is expecting the artists, developers and highly skilled individuals to make what you want for their art pieces. In other words, entitled people demand that designers make games they want. Gamers just play games.

          • le sigh

            “No, what is unreasonable is expecting the artists, developers and highly skilled individuals to make what you want for their art pieces. In other words, entitled people demand that designers make games they want. Gamers just play games.”

            and if that were the whole of it, that would be perfectly fine. except for the fact that when a game like mass effect or dragon age has some homosexuality in it, the “gamers” come out in droves with their sense of entitlement to say that this should not be in “their” game.

            never mind that, but games are made with people in mind… you know, gamers… the people that will buy the games. some developers even go so far as having forums where people can talk about said games… where they get input about said games… they have testing about these games… they try to appeal to different demographics to sell more games. there’s a lot more that goes into this, which, i’m not saying this to insult your intelligence, because i’m absolutely positive that you know this. no sarcasm, seriously. which makes it absolutely reasonable for people to voice their opinions about what they want in games.

            what IS unreasonable is when people express their opinions as to sexism in games and what might offend them, and someone says “fuck you, you’re not a real gamer anyway. get your shit out of my game or i’ll rape you.” if you’re not one of those people, so be it. but for people who pretend it doesn’t exist or downplay it as no big deal or vilify those that try to rectify that situation… yeah, that is quite unreasonable.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “and if that were the whole of it, that would be perfectly fine. except for the fact that when a game like mass effect or dragon age has some homosexuality in it, the ‘gamers’ come out in droves with their sense of entitlement to say that this should not be in their’ game.”

            And my point exactly – the gamers should quit whining, and start gaming. The gaming industry isn’t a democracy.

            “never mind that, but games are made with people in mind… you know, gamers… the people that will buy the games. ”

            Oh, and I suppose most gamers have a problem with there not being enough female protagonists? I doubt that very highly. There is a huge array of female main-character video games to choose from.

            “they try to appeal to different demographics to sell more games.”

            Really? I had no idea.

            “what IS unreasonable is when people express their opinions as to sexism in games and what might offend them, and someone says ‘fuck you, you’re not a real gamer anyway. get your shit out of my game or i’ll rape you.'”

            Yes, because I’m pretty sure that is what the majority of gamers do, and that they are serious about the threat. *sarcasm*

            “but for people who pretend it doesn’t exist or downplay it as no big deal or vilify those that try to rectify that situation… yeah, that is quite unreasonable.”

            Another version of unreasonable is where you try to conflate that example as the majority of gamers. That is also unreasonable. There is a very small percentage of people who do this. This is the same kind of BS they use to try and sell the “video games make you violent” crap. Oh gee, look .0000005% of the gaming community has committed violence, gamers are so violent. (replace violent with sexist, and violence with sexism or mysogyny) and you have the same logical fallacy, but applied to the words coming out of your mouth.

          • Jon Stone

            “The gaming industry isn’t a democracy.”

            There’s a fundamental problem in your claim, on the one hand, that activism somehow has the power to ‘ruin’ gaming when set against a statement like this, which presumes the audience have no power or entitlement to do anything but buy, play and shut up.

          • le sigh

            “Yes, because I’m pretty sure that is what the majority of gamers do, and that they are serious about the threat. *sarcasm*”

            so you’re saying it’s okay to make the threat because they’re not serious about it? yeah, then you’re part of the problem.

            “:Another version of unreasonable is where you try to conflate that example as the majority of gamers.”

            oh cool, show me the part where i said that was the majority of gamers? oh, i didn’t? wow. amazing. it’s almost as if one had some sense of reading comprehension they wouldn’t make that blatant error, thus rendering their entire last paragraph completely pointless.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “so you’re saying it’s okay to make the threat because they’re not serious about it? yeah, then you’re part of the problem.”

            Gee I dunno, I’ve pretty much had people who were my friends make jokes about such things to me, yet I never felt threatened because they did. I think people like you who take every single word someone says so seriously are the problem: Your mind automatically makes the worst case scenario seem to be what is happening.

            “oh cool, show me the part where i said that was the majority of gamers? oh, i didn’t? wow. amazing. it’s almost as if one had some sense of reading comprehension they wouldn’t make that blatant error, thus rendering their entire last paragraph completely pointless.”

            It’s almost as if you’re admitting that the problems you say are so serious aren’t that serious. If so, then why all the outrage at what I’m saying? Why do you call me ‘part of the problem’ because I don’t feel that the incidence of internet trolls in gaming amounts to a huge problem? (Hell, we don’t even know that they truly play video games)

          • le sigh

            you’re seriously going to equate something said between friends as something said between strangers? and ignore that this happens in games? and real life? say you were falsely accused of rape, would you be okay with your friends joking about you being a rapist? are you incapable of understanding how that might offend someone else in that situation, even if it doesn’t apply to you?

            you’re part of the problem because you seem to have zero problem perpetuating an attitude that it’s okay to say you’ll rape someone and use rape jokes. do you think racial humor is okay, too? do you think it’s okay to put down other people in any other way, as well? are you not offended by anything in your life?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            ” are you incapable of understanding how that might offend someone else in that situation, even if it doesn’t apply to you?”

            lol, I could say “puppies are cute” and offend someone. Should we really want the gaming community to “make sure nobody gets offended”? Again, the arguments against violence in video games follow the same tune: “That violence is offensive to me, so nobody should make violent games.”

          • Jon Stone

            Firstly, the Spiderman/woman issue. It isn’t the same pose. Spidey’s curled around a sphere. Spiderwoman is sticking her arse out in the air whilst kneeling on a flat surface.

            “Is it a problem if video games don’t have a 50/50 divide on protagonists by gender?”

            Any way in which games don’t reflect reality speaks to a decision to depart from that reality, and a purpose in doing so. If the divide isn’t roughly 50/50 across a vast industry, it suggests an overall tendency to emphasise the role of men at the expense of women. That is a problem, yes. The reason it happens is more nuanced than ‘men are sexist’, but then, no one ever claimed otherwise.

            “Second, I will state that wanting games that have a female protagonist is just fine, go ahead and make some.”

            Why isn’t this true of all criticism? Let’s not have any games journalism at all – if the journalist doesn’t like something, he or she should make a game that corrects it. Same for all arts and industries.

            In other words, your suggestion entirely dismisses the function of a critic – or indeed an activist. “Not happy with women having no votes, Ms Pankhurst? Start your own country!”

            “No, what is unreasonable is expecting the artists, developers and highly skilled individuals to make what you want for their art pieces.”

            That’s not automatically unreasonable. It depends what you want. If what you want is fair and just, then it’s reasonable to criticise something – especially an entire industry – for not featuring it. Again, you don’t seem to want to appreciate how criticism *or* activism works – that the world has a history of change being enacted by people envisaging a better, fairer world and then making demands based on that.

            “… which will be the downfall of the video game industry as an art form.”

            You are being very silly and melodramatic. This is the same kind of doom-mongering indulged in by equally irrational people who opposed interracial marriage, same sex marriage, women being given the vote, even the majority of the population being gven the vote: “Oh, don’t do what these activists are demanding or it will be the downfall of us all!”

            Games developers will do just fine if they increase the range of roles for females in games.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Firstly, the Spiderman/woman issue. It isn’t the same pose. Spidey’s curled around a sphere. Spiderwoman is sticking her arse out in the air whilst kneeling on a flat surface.”

            The object of the pose, regardless of being on a flat wall or a round sphere (which is a gross-overstatement on your part – I hardly think a pile of thugs will be completely spherical) the idea behind the pose is to look like a spider. To say otherwise is absurd, and goes against the hundreds of examples in comic books.

            ” If the divide isn’t roughly 50/50 across a vast industry, it suggests an overall tendency to emphasise the role of men at the expense of women.”

            That is called a non-sequitur. Why must we assume mysogyny when there are plenty of other reasons that could cause this?

            “Why isn’t this true of all criticism? Let’s not have any games journalism at all – if the journalist doesn’t like something, he or she should make a game that corrects it.”

            Except in this case, there are plenty of games with female protagonists, so complaining about it is absurd.

            “That’s not automatically unreasonable. It depends what you want. If what you want is fair and just, then it’s reasonable to criticise something – especially an entire industry – for not featuring it.”

            Except most of the people criticizing don’t want to play video games. That is the point. Most of the people criticizing are the same crowd saying “video games make you violent” – They met a dead-end on that one, so they tried complaining about something else.

            “Again, you don’t seem to want to appreciate how criticism *or* activism works – that the world has a history of change being enacted by people envisaging a better, fairer world and then making demands based on that.”

            lol, yes I suppose this is the new Civil Rights Movement. Gotta make those evil game companies respect people. Your statement is even more melodramatic than anything I’ve said thus far. BTW, what you call activism, I call whining and complaining. “Let’s whine at it more, like we did to mom and dad when we wanted a PS4.”

            “This is the same kind of doom-mongering indulged in by equally irrational people who opposed interracial marriage, same sex marriage, women being given the vote, even the majority of the population being gven the vote”

            Nice, another generalization. But given that women are the largest portion of the population, and that they spend the majority of the money spent on consumer products, that would indicate that they still purchase video games that don’t have female protagonists. Vote with your wallet, especially if you’re the majority, and have access to the majority of resources.

            “Games developers will do just fine if they increase the range of roles for females in games.”

            LOL. Yes, “Lets invent new roles for just females in video games, because somehow I missed all the games where they have the same roles as men.”

          • Jon Stone

            “… the idea behind the pose is to look like a spider.”

            Having her sticking her arse high in the air doesn’t help with this.

            “That is called a non-sequitur.”

            No, it isn’t. And I feel like it’s getting to the point now where you’re constantly misusing words and phrases, possibly because you’ve picked them up from other internet arguments and misunderstood their meaning.

            “Why must we assume mysogyny when there are plenty of other reasons that could cause this?”

            I didn’t say we must assume misogyny. I said “it suggests an overall tendency to emphasise the role of men at the expense of women”, which is what must follow. Now, why would I emphasise the role of a man in a narrative? Possibly because I am a man and want to write a protagonist I identify with. Or because I assume my audience is men and will want a protagonist they will identify with.

            The problem, as usually theorised, is not that men go out of their way to exclude women, but just that they don’t think about being inclusive towards women, and so exclude them passively. It’s like forming your government and simply ‘forgetting’ to appoint any female ministers.

            “Except in this case, there are plenty of games with female protagonists, so complaining about it is absurd.”

            No, it isn’t, for the reasons I’ve gone over above and previously. Please at least make an effort to understand the point being made rather than belligerently sticking to the point of view that suits your interests.

            “Except most of the people criticizing don’t want to play video games. That is the point.”

            I don’t think that’s a point you can prove. It’s simply your assumption.

            “Nice, another generalization.”

            It’s called a comparison, or analogy.

            I missed the part where you explained how finding a wider variety of roles for female characters is going to negatively impact in any way upon gaming culture or game development? As far as I know, no one has ever explained this.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Having her sticking her arse high in the air doesn’t help with this.”

            And this is why spiderwoman is only featured in a few comic books: People whine about wanting female protagonists, and then automatically assume that a female portrayed the same way a male is portrayed is “sexist.” We aren’t getting anywhere on this one, because your go-to is “automatically assume sexism” where there may or may not be any, or it is at least ambiguous.

            “No, it isn’t. And I feel like it’s getting to the point now where you’re constantly misusing words and phrases, possibly because you’ve picked them up from other internet arguments and misunderstood their meaning.”

            I have a feeling you don’t know what a non-sequitur is.

            “The problem, as usually theorised, is not that men go out of their way to exclude women, but just that they don’t think about being inclusive towards women, and so exclude them passively. It’s like forming your government and simply ‘forgetting’ to appoint any female ministers.”

            lol, so people are whining and complaining because others don’t think of them more. Glad we got that settled – let me just add – People who complain about being excluded from other’s thoughts really shouldn’t be included, because all they care about is getting attention. (Which is exactly my point to begin with.)

            “No, it isn’t, for the reasons I’ve gone over above and previously. Please at least make an effort to understand the point being made rather than belligerently sticking to the point of view that suits your interests.”

            Its absurd. People complaining because developers “don’t think to include women often enough” is like me whining because there aren’t enough ‘Disney Prince’ movies, but several princess movies. Disney doesn’t think about men “often enough” when making movies about royalty.

            “It’s called a comparison, or analogy.”

            Not once you reference stereotypes its not.

            “I missed the part where you explained how finding a wider variety of roles for female characters is going to negatively impact in any way upon gaming culture or game development?”

            I missed the fact where you demonstrated that female protagonists do not have the same variance of roles in video games as male protagonists, but yeah I’m pretty certain that just about every genre has a female protagonist that fills the same roles as male protagonists in that genre.

            “As far as I know, no one has ever explained this.”

            As far as I know, this is not a problem. Female characters have done everything that male characters have done in video games. So what ‘wider variety of roles’ are you asking for? If you want to state something that has been missed, be specific.

          • Jon Stone

            Actually, I withdraw my complaint about your use of ‘non sequitur’. I can see how its usage would be technically correct if the criticism itself were true. So it’s more that I completely disagree with you than you not knowing what the phrase means. How is it a non sequitur? If the real world proportions of men and women are 50:50, anyone presenting a narrative or depiction which is other must be actively choosing to emphasise one over the other, for whatever reason.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            ” I can see how its usage would be technically correct if the criticism itself were true. So it’s more that I completely disagree with you than you not knowing what the phrase means.”

            What are you saying? I dunno, doesn’t mattter.

            “How is it a non sequitur?”

            Let me bring you back to the original statement by you:

            “If the divide isn’t roughly 50/50 across a vast industry, it suggests an overall tendency to emphasise the role of men at the expense of women.”

            This statement is an argument, however a poorly formulated one:

            1. An entertainment industry doesn’t have a ‘roughly’ 50/50 representation in female vs male protagonists.

            2. It therefore follows that men in the industry are emphasizing male roles at the expense of women

            Problem is, before you get to 2, you must have more evidence than just a gap in male and female protagonists. This fact alone does nothing to prove any kind of misogyny, or even an inherent bias in the industry. The non-sequitur (does not follow) is because you have not supported your argument. It is basically an assertion, and nothing more.

            ” If the real world proportions of men and women are 50:50, anyone presenting a narrative or depiction which is other must be actively choosing to emphasise one over the other, for whatever reason.”

            This is not what you said though, you said “at the expense of women” – Meaning that the game developers were deliberately trying to keep women out of games – maybe game developers merely wish to make the games they want to play, and maybe, they want to play male characters. This is not wrong, and not even close to being an issue to complain about. Game developers should be allowed to make games they want to play, and the market can decide if consumers want to play them as well. (Which, spoiler alert, the market says YES, we still like games with both male and female protagonists)

            When you frame things like a competition, then of course you can say “it’s not fair” – But it was never about a competition to see who has the most protagonists with their gender. It was about playing games, and making the games you want to make. Any other political BS is just absurd, and started by non-gamers who wanted to bring their baggage of controversy to the industry, and turn it into a competition of genders.

            Don’t like it? Where’s your video game company making games with ‘not-sexist’ female protagonists? I guarantee, even if you make one, somebody will consider your portrayal ‘sexist’ or ‘misogynistic’ – There is no “win” as far as making a game for these complainers, they will continue to find fault, because they really just want to criticize game developers. They are trolls IRL and on the internet, and people like you feed them the attention they need. Please stop feeding trolls.

          • Jon Stone

            I’m going to try to keep this short, rather than let it sprawl.

            “This is not what you said though, you said “at the expense of women” – Meaning that the game developers were deliberately trying to keep women out of games …”

            That’s not what that means, and really, this is the nub, I feel, of why people like you end up continually at odds with people like me, as well as hating on commentators like Sarkeesian. Whatever is said, you always add your own gloss, your old wild spin. Here you are doing it with the word ‘meaning’.

            That is not what those words mean. ‘At the expense of women’ does not mean, imply, indicate or come anywhere close to suggesting that ‘game developers were deliberately trying to keep women out of games’.

            Sorry if this is a tangent, but from my point of view, I see a widening gulf here between two broad groups of people who will never understand each other, and the reason seems to be that in instances like this, you and others on your side all but *insist* on construing things people have said in improbable ways.

            “I guarantee, even if you make one, somebody will consider your portrayal ‘sexist’ or ‘misogynistic’ …”

            That’s a guarantee you can’t enforce, and which I don’t think you have any grounds to make. It’s based, I think, again, on your construing the arguments made wrongly. Who has ever criticised, say, Vlambeer for being sexist?

            “Game developers should be allowed to make games they want to play, and the market can decide if consumers want to play them as well.”

            And critics should be entitled to make whatever criticisms they see fit, whether from a feminist POV or otherwise. And activists should be entitled to exert non-violent pressure towards change they want. Why do you have a problem with this? You still haven’t explained how any harm is going to come to the industry if a wider range of roles are given to female characters.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “That’s not what that means, and really, this is the nub, I feel, of why people like you end up continually at odds with people like me, as well as hating on commentators like Sarkeesian. Whatever is said, you always add your own gloss, your old wild spin. ”

            If that is not what that means, then why did Sarkeesian bother? Then why did you bother? Is it really an issue if game developers are only thinking about what games they want to make, and not “remembering” remembering to make female protagonists? Didn’t you know? Reeses forgot to make sure that their product adequately reflected the needs of vanilla fans. Only peanut butter and chocolate fans are represented.

            “That is not what those words mean. ‘At the expense of women’ does not mean, imply, indicate or come anywhere close to suggesting that ‘game developers were deliberately trying to keep women out of games’.”

            Then what precisely does it mean? The problem with Sarkeesian (and yourself) is you cannot give any concrete arguments -it’s all vague – the phrase “at the expense of women” is ambiguous to the extreme, and I doubt even you know what it means.

            “Sorry if this is a tangent, but from my point of view, I see a widening gulf here between two broad groups of people who will never understand each other, and the reason seems to be that in instances like this, you and others on your side all but *insist* on construing things people have said in improbable ways.”

            Well, I see you were able to describe the concept of “disagreement” with so much dramatics it makes me sick.

            “That’s a guarantee you can’t enforce, and which I don’t think you have any grounds to make. ”

            Nice opinion. My opinion is that whiners whine no matter how much you try to give them what they ask for. It’s essentially how they continue to make people who are naive enough bend to their will.

            “t’s based, I think, again, on your construing the arguments made wrongly. Who has ever criticised, say, Vlambeer for being sexist?”

            Vlambeer has never made a game with a female protagonist.

            “And critics should be entitled to make whatever criticisms they see fit, whether from a feminist POV or otherwise.”

            Journalists have no business repeating social justice rhetoric that is patently false. Critics should also be people who use the products they are critiquing, unlike your heroine “I don’t play games” (from her own mouth) Sarkeesian.

            “And activists should be entitled to exert non-violent pressure towards change they want. ”

            And those who disagree should be entitled to voice their opinions as well, as I am doing here.

            “You still haven’t explained how any harm is going to come to the industry if a wider range of roles are given to female characters.”

            And you still can’t tell me what the ‘wider range of roles’ being asked for is. I can say you can’t tell me what is wrong with having a “schoodlepoogernoop” in video games, but unless I define it, there is no way for you to give your opinion on whether it would be a good or bad thing in video games.

          • Jon Stone

            “Is it really an issue if game developers are only thinking about what games they want to make, and not “remembering” remembering to make female protagonists?”

            False dichotomy – remembering that half your potential audience is female doesn’t mean you don’t make the game you want to make. The point of feminist activism is to make people genuinely aware of – and attentive to – equality and inclusivity, not to make them throw something in as a sop.

            And have you ever known any game developer to say, “I didn’t want to do this, but felt I had to do it because the feminists told me to?”

            You’re complaining about nothing. Basically, a lot of activists have very strong beliefs about how gaming can be more inclusive and less passively sexist, and they express those beliefs and exert what pressure they can. Where people are convinced, they change their practices. I can’t honestly see why you have a problem with this.

            “Then what precisely does it mean?”

            If you give more room/foregrounding to one gender, it’s at the expense of the other, as night follows day. Just like if you choose to foreground a particular character in a story, it’s at the expense of other elements of the story. Women traditionally have reduced roles in narratives because the lion’s share of time and storytelling effort is focused on male characters. In a world without trenchant biases towards male centrality, some narratives would focus more on female characters, others males, and overall there would be no particular bent one way or the other.

            “… unlike your heroine …”

            I have no particular fondness for Sarkeesian. I said she made some perfectly decent points – so do lots of people. It’s your extreme negative reaction that has to be (and is not thus far) justified – saying she’s a liar and a fraudster, when no one is defrauded and these ‘lies’ are apparently just her deployment of examples which you consider ‘cherry-picking’.

            “Journalists have no business repeating social justice rhetoric that is patently false.”

            But nothing we’re discussing here is ‘patently false’.

            “And those who disagree should be entitled to voice their opinions as well, as I am doing here.”

            Yes, you should be, and I’m not calling for you to stop or be barred from expressing these opinions – I just think you’re wrong. Whereas you seem to be saying that activists have no business critiquing games or stating their opinions because you think it will somehow ruin gaming.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “False dichotomy – remembering that half your potential audience is female”

            First, the numbers for that are skewed. They included farmville and candy crush saga, games that pretty much have no protagonist to speak of, players and that is how they came up with ‘45% of gamers are female’ – Ironically, when one breaks down the numbers by genre, most of the genres that they are complaining have mostly male characters also have mostly male players.

            “The point of feminist activism is to make people genuinely aware of – and attentive to – equality and inclusivity, not to make them throw something in as a sop.”

            Maybe that is your definition, but in practice this is exactly what your idea of ‘activism’ accomplishes. Further, there are many ‘activists’ who simply go along with the whining to get things and privileges. (BTW, throw something in as a sop, is a totally CUTE way to say “throw them a bone”)

            “And have you ever known any game developer to say, ‘I didn’t want to do this, but felt I had to do it because the feminists told me to?'”

            Not exactly, but game developers are used to being rebels. My problem is gaming mediadeliberately praising some games that suck (Depression Quest is a prime example – it doesn’t even accurately depict depression, let alone the terrible game engineering), and ignoring or starting malicious rumors about other games (Tomb Raider being one prime example) by taking things out of context. This directly influences gamers about certain games and is dishonest to the extreme.

            “But nothing we’re discussing here is ‘patently false’.”

            I dunno about you, but I am. Quinn enlisted several major game journalism sites to cover up her cheating, and post smear campaigns on those who pointed it out, calling them “misogynist attacks” – when really they were just ire at her actions, and had nothing to do with gender. A male treating females this way would also incur just as much ire from the gaming community.

            “Yes, you should be, and I’m not calling for you to stop or be barred from expressing these opinions – I just think you’re wrong. Whereas you seem to be saying that activists have no business critiquing games or stating their opinions because you think it will somehow ruin gaming.”

            I’m stating activists that hate games or don’t actually play games or certain game series have no business complaining about products they will never buy or use. This is like me complaining that female fashions don’t flatter my male figure – “I will never buy and wear female clothes, but something compels me to complain about the sexism in this design.” Idiotic, trolling, and just to annoy people. And eventually it will ruin gaming. Gaming used to be about games, but as per conversations like this, and people like Sarkeesian and Quinn, it’s now a pissing contest to decide whether gamers or activists get to control the gaming industry.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            I noticed one of your statements that is so absurd:

            “Basically, a lot of activists have very strong beliefs about how gaming can be more inclusive and less passively sexist, and they express those beliefs and exert what pressure they can. Where people are convinced, they change their practices. I can’t honestly see why you have a problem with this.”

            Because this is what my 4 year old does when she wants to eat candy or ice cream all day. It’s acting like a child. If people were dying over a lack of female protagonists, then maybe I’d think differently, but it is spoiled brat ADULTS who never grew up that engage in this type of behavior.

            “If you give more room/foregrounding to one gender, it’s at the expense of the other, as night follows day. Just like if you choose to foreground a particular character in a story, it’s at the expense of other elements of the story. Women traditionally have reduced roles in narratives because the lion’s share of time and storytelling effort is focused on male characters. In a world without trenchant biases towards male centrality, some narratives would focus more on female characters, others males, and overall there would be no particular bent one way or the other.”

            You make a lot of assumptions. One is the very poor assumption that fiction is separate from other forms of information. You can argue that the majority of video game characters are male, however the majority of magazines, romance novels, and many other forms of media are for women. (And when men get together for a conference on male suicide, or to discuss paternity fraud, it is misogynistic or “conspiracy theories”) Sorry to say, but the majority of media today, aside from certain avenues of entertainment, is for women.

            Another assumption that you make is that:

            “In a world without trenchant biases towards male centrality, some narratives would focus more on female characters, others males, and overall there would be no particular bent one way or the other.”

            This is also an absurd assumption. I know many women who watch narratives about men to see the attractive actors portraying them, or to engage in fantasies about the “perfect man” – This extends beyond fiction, and even applies to the music industry. Justin Bieber, the backstreet boys, and even NSYNC prove that women want men in the spotlight to idolize them, similar to how men like attractive women in media. To claim that the current spread of male/female protagonists or narratives is due to “male centrality” is either very dishonest, or overly simplistic. Using this type of extrapolation, most strippers should be buff men, because of “male centrality.”

            “I have no particular fondness for Sarkeesian. I said she made some perfectly decent points – so do lots of people. It’s your extreme negative reaction that has to be (and is not thus far) justified – saying she’s a liar and a fraudster, when no one is defrauded and these ‘lies’ are apparently just her deployment of examples which you consider ‘cherry-picking’.”

            Well she first said she wasn’t much of a gamer, then said she has been playing games most of her life because she played mario as a child, and then we found her anti-game rant from college. So yeah, she’s been lying. More importantly, she has deliberately painted video games with a broad brush, implying that the majority of game narratives are sexist ‘because teenage boys.’ Using her cherry-picked examples, she paints a picture of the “gaming industry” that is not representative of the whole. This is like racists who cherry-pick crimes of race X and try to use that as an example of what is normative across that race. It’s not directly lying, but it is deceiving, which is similar enough that I feel no need to make a distinction.

          • le sigh

            1) you mean the one where it looks like her suit was painted on? i could totally see how that would be considered sexist. i don’t recall ever seeing peter drawn like that, not that i follow spider-man books all that closely.

            2) sure, there are games with both female and male characters, but how many of those games portray the females as more than just eye candy or disproportionately sexualized vs their male co-stars? but more importantly, why is it unreasonable to request more or stronger female protagonists? easy, it’s not. that list bit is a false dichotomy.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “i don’t recall ever seeing peter drawn like that, not that i follow spider-man books all that closely.”

            Hmmm, well for one – spiderman is always in full spandex, and for two, see my comment below to see spidey in his @ss-out glory.

            “sure, there are games with both female and male characters, but how many of those games portray the females as more than just eye candy or disproportionately sexualized vs their male co-stars? ”

            IMHO, I don’t really think it is disproportionate. Most video game heroes, male or female are this way. Just look at almost any MMORPG – Do real men walk around with arms bigger than their heads and perfectly hairless chest protruding from their clothes? I think not.

            ” but more importantly, why is it unreasonable to request more or stronger female protagonists? easy, it’s not. ”

            If I have cookies, and you go around telling everyone I’m selfish because I have cookies, and you don’t (when really you have a large number of cookies) then it is unreasonable. And this is what is done: Whining commences about how there are no meaningful female protagonists, and the games that do actually have them are ignored. So very unreasonable. Misrepresentation of facts.

          • le sigh

            that’s a false analogy. analogies have their place, but to use that instead of the wealth of real life examples you could have culled from in regards to the gaming industry, it’s pretty weak.

          • Livnthedream

            Which is why they use statistics like “half of gamers are women” as an argument when that is only true when you include stuff like Candy Crush and Farmville. When you look at AAA titles, the ones they are pointing to as “unfair” its closer to 80/20 male female.

          • le sigh

            are you suggesting that because they’re playing those games… they’re not actually gaming?

          • Livnthedream

            No, I am saying you cannot take a statistic of the whole and apply it a segment and expect that to be a fair measure. Saying that “50% of gamers is women” may be true, expecting 50% of women to be those who play competitive AAA titles is not fair for numerous reasons.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Cannot be upvoted enough times!!!

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “that’s a false analogy. analogies have their place, but to use that instead of the wealth of real life examples you could have culled from in regards to the gaming industry, it’s pretty weak.”

            What precisely is a “false analogy”? The entertainment media strives to put forth the most attractive characters and actors and accentuate these features to their audience. Done. If you think this only applies to female actors and characters you lying to yourself.

          • Livnthedream

            The problem is many of them claim that there isn’t one. Again I point to Sarkeesian who blatantly says that every single one has issues with something. By her definition you can’t have a “strong female character”.

            As for the request, honestly because I don’t feel its the right of the populace to make such demands on the industry, unless you really think what stories developers want to tell should be actively dictated by committee rather than based on what they want to make. There are a number of female characters that fit what many are considering ok, like the new Tomb Raider for example, but most of them are not in highly AAA titles because women do not buy those titles. The industry at large already has a strong hit or close down problem, making this sort of demand will only increase that issue.

          • le sigh

            “unless you really think what stories developers want to tell should be actively dictated by committee rather than based on what they want to make.” i have certainly not said that. if anything, it’s the misogynists/bigots that have been frothing at the mouth to get games to be more like how they want it. an example of this kind of culture would be the “fake gamer girl”. women aren’t seen as “true gamers”, but outsiders and fakes. “gamers” sling vitriol at developers for making sequels that appeal to a more mainstream audience.

            the requests aren’t unreasonable because as far as i know, developers reach out to the public… they go to conventions, have forums, have twitter accounts and engage with people, they read articles and comments, they are influenced by the people that are going to buy their games… they don’t produce this content in a void. treating asking for more female characters as some kind of slippery slope argument for dictating what developers should make is a pretty blatant fallacy.

          • Livnthedream

            That is utter bullshit. Where are the posts saying all women needs to be fuckdolls in games and there are too many “strong female characters” in games?

            And no, there is no slippery slope. For one who just complained about words being put in your mouth you just did an amazing job of doing that to me. Maybe you missed my point? I don’t believe Affirmative Action in regards to content is realistic Studios shouldn’t be being told that “Hey, you made 4 Call of Duty titles, now make a Tomb Raider game or you are misogynist!”. Which even that is a poor example as the extremists that you claim don’t represent the movement tore her apart as a “Man with breasts”.

          • le sigh

            “That is utter bullshit. Where are the posts saying all women needs to be fuckdolls in games and there are too many “strong female characters” in games?” are you implying that i said that? if so, where?

            “And no, there is no slippery slope. For one who just complained about words being put in your mouth you just did an amazing job of doing that to me.” -you

            “honestly because I don’t feel its the right of the populace to make such demands on the industry, unless you really think what stories developers want to tell should be actively dictated by committee rather than based on what they want to make.” -also you

            reading comprehension fail much? are you denying that developers engage with the public and get feedback as to what they want in games? what were you saying earlier about me only engaging with morons?

          • Livnthedream

            “i have certainly not said that. if anything, it’s the misogynists/bigots
            that have been frothing at the mouth to get games to be more like how
            they want it.”

            ^ That statement says that there should be forums full of men stating that that all women should be Bayonetta and all men Duke Nukem. Which is absurd.

            How do you figure that amounts to a slippery slope. You said that women should have the right to demand more women in video games. Which is one they currently have so the logical conclusion of your argument is that they should have the right to expect to have the argument met. IE They get more women in games as anything else is a problem, or their misogyny as they call it. Unless your argument really is right now that the industry completely ignores women and their voice isn’t heard at all, which is equally absurd. If that were the case we wouldn’t have the women focused games that we currently have, be that for good or ill.

          • le sigh

            “That statement says that there should be forums full of men stating that that all women should be Bayonetta and all men Duke Nukem. Which is absurd.” it is absurd, because it’s not what i’m saying at all. STRAW MAN.

            “How do you figure that amounts to a slippery slope.”

            because YOU somehow conflated that developers getting feedback from gamers would in turn be the developers being dictated into what they put into the games.

            “You said that women should have the right to demand more women in video games.” -you

            “but more importantly, why is it unreasonable to request more or stronger female protagonists?” -me. notice i didn’t say demand. words are important. it is how we are now communicating. if you can not read, you should not be engaging in written discourse.

          • Livnthedream

            What straw man? You made the claim that all these misogynist gamers are “frothing at the mouth” to keep women in check. If that isn’t what you meant then what exactly did you mean?

            Because why would you even bring it up when its no different than it is now? Last I checked no one is railing against women requesting more women in games. They are railing against feminists telling them that the industry is misogynist because there isn’t more women in games, with a move the goal posts reasoning as to why that is and how they define a strong female role model. Or did you miss Quinn’s Bingo Board drinking game, and Sarkeesian’s doctorate paper (on tv, not games, cause remember she isn’t a gamer) which only showed positives for what amount to Civ6: Womens Edition as the only viable female lead character.

          • Spartanlemur

            The painted on suit rationale is pretty simple. It’s marketed towards teenage boys who like that kind of thing. I’m well past that stage now, and women (unless lesbian) I imagine aren’t interested either, but it’s not our right to get angry because publishers don’t make comics aimed at us!

            If we want more realistic stuff aimed at mature audiences, or women, or the LGBT community, or whoever, we need to pitch up the money en masse, and not complain about other people creating content for other people!

            I believe that if spider woman was aimed at women (if women read more comic books) she would be wearing more of a suit. Same goes for Vampirella. Though I’m not a woman, so this is obviously just speculation.

            My point is that if these arguments are going to have any justification, they’re going to need to use evidence to make the case that if women are the intended target market, devs/artists are mistaking their preferences, or if they’re not, devs are underestimating their membership, and could make more sales by making games aimed at them. For broad appeal games, compromises must be made proportional to market makeup (i.e. 20% female, 80% male, but this will change with time).

            I think the issue right now is that many women game on iOS/Android, while those who opt for consoles or PCs are still relatively few. We all win here if we can expand the core market by encouraging women who game on mobile devices to switch to core games (more money in gaming overall and more incentive to cater games to the desires of women), so perhaps that’s where the focus should be instead?

          • Rich

            If you could name ten games with playable female protagonists who aren’t simply there as eye candy (Tombraider, Bayonetta) I’d be impressed. Name a hundred and I’ll be amazed. I would also like to claim that they’re are lots of things preventing people from making their own games, which of course deviates heavily from the discussion on cultural representation.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “If you could name ten games with playable female protagonists who aren’t simply there as eye candy (Tombraider, Bayonetta) I’d be impressed.”

            Can you name 10 games where playable male protagonists wouldn’t classify as “eye candy”? Can you explain to me why female gamers wouldn’t want to play sexy characters? I’m married to a gamer girl, and she makes her MMORPG characters sexy, even down to the choice of clothing. (Who wouldn’t?)

            This is also a point of debate. What constitutes being “eye candy”? Are attractive female protagonists “only eye candy” to you? Is the old Tomb Raider only there for “eye candy”? What about the movie? Do you think that Jolie did a “sexist” portrayal of the character?

            This is the classic ‘moving goalpost’ – “You better have games with female protagonists – oh wait, you do? Well those are invalid, because I think they are sexist.”

            “Name a hundred and I’ll be amazed.”

            Yeah, well, when you make the criteria using a double-standard, of course it is impossible to find them. This is a dishonest, (or extremely misled) take on this topic.

          • God ov Hover Hand

            “If you could name ten games with playable female protagonists who aren’t simply there as eye candy”

            This sounds like a fun challenge:

            Heather Mason, Silent Hill 3
            Mio Amakura, Fatal Frame 2
            Nilin, Remember Me
            Shion, Xenosaga
            Jill Valentine, Resident Evil
            Aurora, Child of Light
            April Ryan, The Last Journey
            Zoe Castillo, Dreamfall
            Ms. Pac Man, Ms. Pac Man
            Samus, any Metroid
            Can’t think of 100 off the spot…
            Anyways, I think the modern Lara Croft counts as a legitimate female protagonist. Sure, she is pretty, easy on the eyes, and has a chest comparable to her old 90s self but she doesn’t exist to solely for the purpose of pleasing you visually. Being eye candy doesn’t discredit you as a good video game character as long as you have depth and multiple dimensions.

          • Livnthedream

            Again, that is the issue. This is the face of modern feminism, which is exactly why many other feminists have an issue with it like http://honeybadgerbrigade.com/radio/zoe-quinn-and-the-feminist-mean-girls/

            They are far more reasonable and actually sorta realistic. Unfortunately they don’t have the ear of popular media. I am tired of hearing from the likes of Arkeesian and Quinn, the widely accepted feminist face of gaming.

          • Ben (Broken)

            Honey Badger Radio is composed of women who fight for men’s rights. I don’t think I’ve ever heard Karen or the others ever refer to themselves as feminists. Not trying to be an asshole,just clarifying. lol.

          • Livnthedream

            It certainly comes off as mens rights when you are comparing it against the likes of Sarkeesian and Quinn. But then when your motto is “If you aren’t with us you are against us” being right of center but left of far right still makes you a bad guy. Er woman. Oh damn that misogyny.

          • Ben (Broken)

            Heh,indeed!

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “you’re not describing feminists. those are not examples of feminists. you’re pointing to misandrists and clueless assholes and saying ‘look at these feminists’.”

            Actually, they are both misandrists and feminists. You’re not really going to use the “not all feminists are like that” argument are you? SOME feminists are definitely like that, and enough to make a lot of drama in the media.

            “the fundamentals of feminism are not about denigrating men. it is not about knocking down a society with patriarchal tendencies and substituting it with a matriarchal one.”

            That may not be the stated goal, but then, the stated goal of Hitler wasn’t to kill 6 million Jews either.

          • Hyena

            Remember when there was “No such thing as Misandry!”?

            Pepperidge Farms remembers.

      • Ben (Broken)

        A simple question if I may interject. If you are about “equality for everyone” why not simply call yourself an egalitarian? It means what you want it to mean without excluding anyone. By contrast the word “feminism” means “female” or “feminine”. As in it’s not a word that includes all people. And I apologize for being bitter but most sjw/feminists I meet come off as self righteous and condescending. Instead of being about “love,equality,and understanding” they are usually bigots who merely change the goal post on who to scapegoat and hate. Playing musical chairs with someone’s anger,loathing, and victim complex does not make it morally right. A person is a racist regardless of if they target Asians,Latinos,Blacks,or Whites. And a person is also a gender bigot if they put their gender above the other. Feminists are not exempt from this logic.

        If it means anything to you, I’ve gotten into heated arguments with the most unreasonable of mras too. And it’s funny how when I disagree with them they call me a feminist yet when I disagree with feminists they usually call me an mra!

        I will agree that there are a few good people on both sides of the gender war but the unreasonable fanatics are so vast in number I merely try to take the best points from both feminists and mras yet prevent myself from being 100% swallowed by either ideology.

        Are women slut shamed unfairly? All the time. What happened to Felicia Garcia was deplorable. She jumped in front of a train because bullies slut shammed her to suicide. (But let us not confuse “why” gamers are mad at Zoe in particular. It’s a matter of nepotism and journalistic cronyism.) But whereas women get slut shamed men in western society often get run down by divorce courts,alimony payments, and child support payments. While the man is not always the right party in the marriage the family courts tend to favor women regardless of either spouses character and integrity. The mere accusation of rape or other sexual crimes can ruin a man’s reputation instantaneously without any proof being presented. Men are also expected to provide and to sacrifice in most situations.

        If all this was not enough heterosexuality is shamed in our society. If I go to a strip club I’m objectifying women. It doesn’t matter if the dancer is getting paid and works there of her own free will. I’m the one contributing to “teh evil patriarchy”. As an artist I actually draw scantily clad female characters and have even drawn hentai. Yet as much as sjws whine I refuse to change. Why? It’s a friggin illustration! Don’t like it? You don’t have to look at it! “Fictional characters” and “art” don’t secretly contribute to some conspiracy laden rape culture. Yes, disturbed people do disturbed things and they sometimes say they were inspired by a book,a game or a music cd. However,those people were insane and unbalanced to begin with. We cannot censor all of entertainment just because the human race occasionally pops out a criminal mind.

        Again I ask you,why not simply call yourself an egalitarian?

        • le sigh

          well the simple answer is because feminism and egalitarian aren’t the same thing. feminism is a subset of egalitarianism. it’s like saying why don’t you call yourself a christian when you’re a catholic. it’s just focusing on certain issues. feminism is also about addressing issues with men, not just women. what you might hear as the “patriarchal society”, stuff that says “if you’re not tough or you cry, you’re a pussy.” “real men don’t do x”. “man up.” “grow some balls.” denigrating men that have any kind of aspect that is regarded as “feminine”. the rape culture and victim blaming. a real feminist wouldn’t approve of a man being falsely accused of rape. etc, etc. etc. that’s REAL feminism. i hope that answers your question.

          • Ben (Broken)

            Truly? You address men’s issues under the name of “fem”-i-nism? I wish I could believe that. The thing is I cannot. Nor is your Christian/Catholic metaphor accurate. I’m an egalitarian because I care about both men’s and women’s rights equally. The fact I’m not a feminist does not make my claim untrue. You’re not going to strong arm me into being bias or into compromising my core beliefs. And this is when I stop responding to you. Good day!

          • le sigh

            LOL wtf?! please, you asked a question and i answered it. there’s no strong arming here. the fact that you took it that way says a lot more about you than it does me. i have zero problem with you not responding to any of this, clearly you’d rather just spew nonsense and remain ignorant than actually educate yourself on anything you attempt to talk about. lmfao

    • BabaYaga

      I can just tell you. Dont listen and dont care about what these people say to you. If you are an asshole when you play online be it and enjoy it. If you are nice at times enjoy it too. We shouldnt care what these lost SJW´s have to say about their own conflicts. LEt them talk… you cant win an argument, never. Without reason there is no way to win a war against such a stupidty!

  • Ben (Broken)

    Most people will not argue with common decency. Very few people in western civilization believe that women should not be able to drive, work, own property, run for office, or be treated with respect so long as they give respect in return.

    Society is so progressive I think new-wave social justice and new wave feminism had to “make up’ new monsters to keep relevant. Are you a man that likes sexy depictions of women in comics or videogames that are scantily clad and in sexually suggestive poses? You sexist misogynist! Why aren’t you rallying against the patriarchy?! I’m sorry, but men being aroused by depictions of attractive women is basic biology and as a whole harmless fantasy escapism.

    Then there’s white privilege, this belief whites are a genetically superior conqueror race that come with 1,001 built in special perks and benefits who should be held accountable for their billions of nefarious collective misdeeds. I’m sorry, but we have our poor, downtrodden, and destitute too. A very small minority of whites live in pearly gated communities and nice suburbs. Most of us are struggling lower middle class or impoverished just like everyone else. I’m not saying racism does not exist but I am saying it is possible to even be racist against white people. It’s so odd to see comments like “Die whitey, die!” yet sjws will pretend such nasty sentiments towards whites simply do not exist or worse, are somehow justified. Lastly, the practice of blaming people in the present who had nothing to do with the past for atrocities done before they were born is unfair and stupid. For the record, I’d have a problem with this smear campaign if it was called “Black privilege” “Latino privilege” or “Asian privilege” too. It would be the exact same bullshit hate speech targeting a different group of people to become the new scapegoat. It’s wrong no matter who the arrow points at. Even if you so happen to avoid the bullet of being white people can still shout you down for cis privilege, able bodied privilege, or thin privilege. What is this, the friggin oppression Olympics? Should any of us be “proud” of victim hood?

    But worst still, “gamers” are looked down on as a whole. Race and gender are irrelevant, if we do not agree with “the morally superior gaming press” we are targeted as women hating racist pedophiliac swine who live in our parents basement. If that is not worse enough they also target developers. Remember the accusations of Kojima being misogynistic because of Quiet’s character model? Remember when Kat Bailey compared Lords Of Shadow 2 to Rape-lay just because Dracula fed on a woman? Remember when Kotaku and Polygon attacked Dragon’s crown just because the sorceress had large breasts? How about the uproar of Lara Croft getting “raped” when in the actual new Tombraider no such event even happened? This is not real journalism. This is holding gamers and developers under the threat of slander if they do not play along.

    Even excluding the Zoe Quinn scandal we’ve put up with a lot of mistreatment.

    • Jon Stone

      This is a reiteration of your own misgivings that hasn’t really got much to do with the issues at hands. But for what it’s worth, you completely misunderstand (intentionally?) the feminist/activist argument. I’ve always found their points to be well made, and never felt that I’ve been monstered by feminist arguments just for being a man.

      I’m familiar with most of the incidents you reference, and it seems to me you’re just not putting in the effort to understand the actual arguments that were made. Instead, you’re making up your own monster (or straw man) to have something to hate on – doing exactly what you accuse feminists of.

      • Gregg Braddoch

        “Instead, you’re making up your own monster (or straw man) to have something to hate on – doing exactly what you accuse feminists of.”

        Oh you mean like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q

        Despite the number of innacuracies? I think people like Sarkeesian and others make it very clear that they want exactly what Ben is saying.

        • Jon Stone

          I’ve seen that already. And no, it doesn’t line up remotely with how it is then ‘summarised’ by Ben, and you, and others. All of the points she makes seem reasonable to me when you’re not straining to find ways to interpret them as problematic.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “I’ve seen that already. And no, it doesn’t line up remotely with how it is then ‘summarised’ by Ben, and you, and others. ”

            Not ‘summarised’, but then not even summarized, but fully shown to be a pack of lies, and cherry picked examples. (And a huge donation to the Sarkeesian ‘make me famous’ fund, where she spent tens of thousands of dollars ‘making’ a couple short videos that I could have made for $100)

          • Jon Stone

            I’ve heard these criticisms before too. They aren’t borne out. I’m not a particular fan of Sarkeesian and find her presentation style bland, but to anyone coming at the conflict between her and people like you from a neutral point of view, your reaction looks hysterical. Why do you care that people voluntarily gave her money for a project that may well have cost less? Have any of them complained about being defrauded? If not, your complaint is absurd.

            ‘Cherry-picked examples’ is a legitimate way to make a case as to the commonality of something. This objection makes no sense. As for the ‘lies’ – what lies? I should say at this point that I sat through a half hour youtube rant supposedly taking Sarkeesian to task for this video, and then the reply to that rant by another youtuber. The guy making the original rant was consummately shown to be wilfully misinterpreting and glossing everything said in Sarkeesian’s video. It was an exercise in being completely obtuse. I think that’s what you’re engaging in too.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “I’ve heard these criticisms before too. They aren’t borne out.”

            Yeah, it’s not like she has factual errors throughout her videos, oh wait she does.

            “but to anyone coming at the conflict between her and people like you from a neutral point of view, your reaction looks hysterical.”

            Yeah, that’s just a veiled ad hominem attack, nothing more.

            “‘Cherry-picked examples’ is a legitimate way to make a case as to the commonality of something.”

            Not really. It’s more a way to make things that are less common appear more common. That is dishonest.

            ” As for the ‘lies’ – what lies?”

            If you cannot watch the videos to see the lies, then I will not repeat them here. But generally, it is equating cherry picked examples as the norm in video games.

            “The guy making the original rant was consummately shown to be wilfully misinterpreting and glossing everything said in Sarkeesian’s video.”

            Heh, because there was only one video ever made criticizing Tropes vs. Women in video games. You like cherry-picking almost as much as sarkeesian.

            ” It was an exercise in being completely obtuse. I think that’s what you’re engaging in too.”

            And there’s the same faulty generalization that Sarkeesian uses. Nice to know that you appreciate using logical fallacies to make your point. “Lets pick specific examples that match our viewpoint, and then use them to say that these examples are the norm.” is your particular brand of reasoning. No wonder you defend Sarkeesian.

          • Jon Stone

            “But generally, it is equating cherry picked examples as the norm in video games.”

            No, that’s fundamentally not a lie. It’s an impression deployed as an argument. So you were exaggerating and painting it out to be worse than it is.

            “Yeah, that’s just a veiled ad hominem attack, nothing more…”

            No, ‘ad hominem’ would be a personal criticism of you, not your particular reaction to a situation. I’m sorry, but being furious over someone being given money voluntarily by people who like their work qualifies as a hysterical overreaction in my book.

            “And there’s the same faulty generalization …”

            I didn’t use a generalisation. I referred to a particular example and said I thought you were engaging in the same activity. That is not a generalisation. You are using words incorrectly.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “No, that’s fundamentally not a lie.”

            Well I’m glad that you don’t equate dishonesty with lying. But that is all good.

            “No, ‘ad hominem’ would be a personal criticism of you, not your particular reaction to a situation. ”

            It’s a criticism made to discredit someone. That is your point. If I said “you’re being hysterical” in response to a statement, that would be an ad hominem.

            “I didn’t use a generalisation. I referred to a particular example and said I thought you were engaging in the same activity. That is not a generalisation. ”

            Generalization: “a general statement or concept obtained by inference from specific cases.” It is absolutely generalization. This is like you saying “you act just like those hipster kids.”

            “You are using words incorrectly.”

            LOL.

        • BabaYaga

          She is the biggest idiot in gaming history. She craweld into it and soon being a little bit prominent pointed out how everything is sexist and actualy sucks. She is definately one of the freaks who make look games more worse then all these politicians trying to label FPS games as KILLER creating games.

          • Rich

            How about maybe at some point trying to understand the critique before answering it? Might seem more legit?

    • le sigh

      “Are you a man that likes sexy depictions of women in comics or videogames that are scantily clad and in sexually suggestive poses? You sexist misogynist!” idk what the hell kind of feminists you’re referring to, but that’s a typical straw man argument. i have never met a single feminist that would ever say anything as idiotic as that.

      ” yet sjws will pretend such nasty sentiments towards whites simply do not exist or worse, are somehow justified.” i don’t know any “SJW” that would say something like that either. another example of a straw man.

      “But worst still, “gamers” are looked down on as a whole.” think about that for a few minutes and apply that to everything you’re saying. you’re generalizing entire groups of people based on straw men. even if the most extreme feminists or racists or sjws fell into your descriptions, why does that somehow apply to ALL of them? did you actually look into any of these specific examples that you’ve given, or did you just hand wave them away as nonsense? because it seems much more the latter than the former. it may help for you to dig a little deeper and understand exactly what you’re arguing against.

      “Most people will not argue with common decency.” and that’s exactly what “feminists” and “sjws” want… some equality and decency and respect. if it’s not that unreasonable to you… then i don’t see why you have such a problem with them.

      • BabaYaga

        God damnit… go away with your inner conflicts and talk to alice in wonderland. This is gaming you know. Shoot shoot zombie dead bang bang flash… and now get lost. No one wants you, no one even needs you here!

        The only importance you have is to move on and let games be games

        • Jon Stone

          “This is gaming you know. Shoot shoot zombie dead bang bang flash… and now get lost.”

          I think you might be confusing all of gaming with zombie games.

      • Livnthedream

        “idk what the hell kind of feminists you’re referring to, but that’s a
        typical straw man argument. i have never met a single feminist that
        would ever say anything as idiotic as that.”

        Meet Zoe Quinn, the woman who defines cheating on your SO and not telling them as rape.

        “i don’t know any “SJW” that would say something like that either. another example of a straw man.”

        How about these then? http://i.imgur.com/K0AS56x.png
        http://i.4cdn.org/v/1408769306287.jpg

        “even if the most extreme feminists or racists or sjws fell into your descriptions, why does that somehow apply to ALL of them?”

        Which is exactly the issue with demonizing either side based on the extremists of either. The issue is the media is pushing the extremist angle because it gets them money, even if many of them clearly do not actually believe in it based on their actions.

        “Most people will not argue with common decency.” and that’s exactly what “feminists” and “sjws” want… some equality and decency and respect. if it’s not that unreasonable to you… then i don’t see why you have such a problem with them.

        That is the issue at hand in general methinks. What one side is deeming reasonable, the other does not. Like the misuse of gaming statistics to push an agenda of “Equality” and constantly shifting goal posts.

        • Jon Stone

          There’s only one of those comments that’s remotely troubling, unless you’re looking at it through your special ‘Feminists are evil’ glasses.

        • le sigh

          you’re not describing feminists. those are not examples of feminists. you’re pointing to misandrists and clueless assholes and saying “look at these feminists”. the fundamentals of feminism are not about denigrating men. it is not about knocking down a society with patriarchal tendencies and substituting it with a matriarchal one.

          “What one side is deeming reasonable, the other does not.”
          specifics, please?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Unreasonable: Complaining about spiderwoman being posed a certain way, because it’s ‘sexist’ when she is in a typical spiderman pose.

            Unreasonable: Complaining that there are not enough female protagonists when there are literally hundreds of games with either both genders as protagonist or female protagonists only. Further unreasonable when criticizing the looks of these female protagonists: Either too boring, or “sexist”

          • Jon Stone

            “Complaining about spiderwoman being posed a certain way, because it’s ‘sexist’ when she is in a typical spiderman pose.”

            She wasn’t though, was she? Come on. Try harder.

            “Complaining that there are not enough female protagonists when there are literally hundreds of games with either both genders as protagonist or female protagonists only.”

            Are you seriously, seriously telling me that the proportion of male to female characters and protagonists is remotely close to 50/50? If not, how is it unreasonable to want better representation?

            “Further unreasonable when criticizing the looks of these female protagonists: Either too boring, or “sexist””

            But that’s not what’s criticised.

            So none of what you’ve listed is unreasonable. What’s unreasonable is not listening to or considering properly criticisms and complaints that are made because you’re too eager to dismiss them because the problems alleged, if true, don’t affect you.

            So that’s you then. YOU are not being reasonable.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “She wasn’t though, was she? Come on. Try harder.”

            I’m not even sure that was a complete sentence, however she was posed exactly as spiderman had been posed in the past.

            Article bitching about it:
            http://www.elle.com/news/culture/spider-woman-comic-book

            Picture showing spiderman in the same pose:
            http://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/10583949_10152367965345835_5481620032236656223_n-1.jpg

            “Are you seriously, seriously telling me that the proportion of male to female characters and protagonists is remotely close to 50/50? If not, how is it unreasonable to want better representation?”

            Well there are numerous problems with your question, but lets just ignore most of them, and ask: Is it a problem if video games don’t have a 50/50 divide on protagonists by gender?

            Second, I will state that wanting games that have a female protagonist is just fine, go ahead and make some. Nobody is stopping you.

            “So none of what you’ve listed is unreasonable. What’s unreasonable is not listening or considering properly criticisms and complaints that are made because you’re too eager to dismiss them because the problems alleged, if true, don’t affect you.”

            No, what is unreasonable is expecting the artists, developers and highly skilled individuals to make what you want for their art pieces. In other words, entitled people demand that designers make games they want. Gamers just play games.

          • le sigh

            “No, what is unreasonable is expecting the artists, developers and highly skilled individuals to make what you want for their art pieces. In other words, entitled people demand that designers make games they want. Gamers just play games.”

            and if that were the whole of it, that would be perfectly fine. except for the fact that when a game like mass effect or dragon age has some homosexuality in it, the “gamers” come out in droves with their sense of entitlement to say that this should not be in “their” game.

            never mind that, but games are made with people in mind… you know, gamers… the people that will buy the games. some developers even go so far as having forums where people can talk about said games… where they get input about said games… they have testing about these games… they try to appeal to different demographics to sell more games. there’s a lot more that goes into this, which, i’m not saying this to insult your intelligence, because i’m absolutely positive that you know this. no sarcasm, seriously. which makes it absolutely reasonable for people to voice their opinions about what they want in games.

            what IS unreasonable is when people express their opinions as to sexism in games and what might offend them, and someone says “fuck you, you’re not a real gamer anyway. get your shit out of my game or i’ll rape you.” if you’re not one of those people, so be it. but for people who pretend it doesn’t exist or downplay it as no big deal or vilify those that try to rectify that situation… yeah, that is quite unreasonable.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “and if that were the whole of it, that would be perfectly fine. except for the fact that when a game like mass effect or dragon age has some homosexuality in it, the ‘gamers’ come out in droves with their sense of entitlement to say that this should not be in their’ game.”

            And my point exactly – the gamers should quit whining, and start gaming. The gaming industry isn’t a democracy.

            “never mind that, but games are made with people in mind… you know, gamers… the people that will buy the games. ”

            Oh, and I suppose most gamers have a problem with there not being enough female protagonists? I doubt that very highly. There is a huge array of female main-character video games to choose from.

            “they try to appeal to different demographics to sell more games.”

            Really? I had no idea.

            “what IS unreasonable is when people express their opinions as to sexism in games and what might offend them, and someone says ‘fuck you, you’re not a real gamer anyway. get your shit out of my game or i’ll rape you.'”

            Yes, because I’m pretty sure that is what the majority of gamers do, and that they are serious about the threat. *sarcasm*

            “but for people who pretend it doesn’t exist or downplay it as no big deal or vilify those that try to rectify that situation… yeah, that is quite unreasonable.”

            Another version of unreasonable is where you try to conflate that example as the majority of gamers. That is also unreasonable. There is a very small percentage of people who do this. This is the same kind of BS they use to try and sell the “video games make you violent” crap. Oh gee, look .0000005% of the gaming community has committed violence, gamers are so violent. (replace violent with sexist, and violence with sexism or mysogyny) and you have the same logical fallacy, but applied to the words coming out of your mouth.

          • Jon Stone

            “The gaming industry isn’t a democracy.”

            There’s a fundamental problem in your claim, on the one hand, that activism somehow has the power to ‘ruin’ gaming when set against a statement like this, which presumes the audience have no power or entitlement to do anything but buy, play and shut up.

          • le sigh

            “Yes, because I’m pretty sure that is what the majority of gamers do, and that they are serious about the threat. *sarcasm*”

            so you’re saying it’s okay to make the threat because they’re not serious about it? yeah, then you’re part of the problem.

            “:Another version of unreasonable is where you try to conflate that example as the majority of gamers.”

            oh cool, show me the part where i said that was the majority of gamers? oh, i didn’t? wow. amazing. it’s almost as if one had some sense of reading comprehension they wouldn’t make that blatant error, thus rendering their entire last paragraph completely pointless.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “so you’re saying it’s okay to make the threat because they’re not serious about it? yeah, then you’re part of the problem.”

            Gee I dunno, I’ve pretty much had people who were my friends make jokes about such things to me, yet I never felt threatened because they did. I think people like you who take every single word someone says so seriously are the problem: Your mind automatically makes the worst case scenario seem to be what is happening.

            “oh cool, show me the part where i said that was the majority of gamers? oh, i didn’t? wow. amazing. it’s almost as if one had some sense of reading comprehension they wouldn’t make that blatant error, thus rendering their entire last paragraph completely pointless.”

            It’s almost as if you’re admitting that the problems you say are so serious aren’t that serious. If so, then why all the outrage at what I’m saying? Why do you call me ‘part of the problem’ because I don’t feel that the incidence of internet trolls in gaming amounts to a huge problem? (Hell, we don’t even know that they truly play video games)

          • le sigh

            you’re seriously going to equate something said between friends as something said between strangers? and ignore that this happens in games? and real life? say you were falsely accused of rape, would you be okay with your friends joking about you being a rapist? are you incapable of understanding how that might offend someone else in that situation, even if it doesn’t apply to you?

            you’re part of the problem because you seem to have zero problem perpetuating an attitude that it’s okay to say you’ll rape someone and use rape jokes. do you think racial humor is okay, too? do you think it’s okay to put down other people in any other way, as well? are you not offended by anything in your life?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            ” are you incapable of understanding how that might offend someone else in that situation, even if it doesn’t apply to you?”

            lol, I could say “puppies are cute” and offend someone. Should we really want the gaming community to “make sure nobody gets offended”? Again, the arguments against violence in video games follow the same tune: “That violence is offensive to me, so nobody should make violent games.”

          • Jon Stone

            Firstly, the Spiderman/woman issue. It isn’t the same pose. Spidey’s curled around a sphere. Spiderwoman is sticking her arse out in the air whilst kneeling on a flat surface.

            “Is it a problem if video games don’t have a 50/50 divide on protagonists by gender?”

            Any way in which games don’t reflect reality speaks to a decision to depart from that reality, and a purpose in doing so. If the divide isn’t roughly 50/50 across a vast industry, it suggests an overall tendency to emphasise the role of men at the expense of women. That is a problem, yes. The reason it happens is more nuanced than ‘men are sexist’, but then, no one ever claimed otherwise.

            “Second, I will state that wanting games that have a female protagonist is just fine, go ahead and make some.”

            Why isn’t this true of all criticism? Let’s not have any games journalism at all – if the journalist doesn’t like something, he or she should make a game that corrects it. Same for all arts and industries.

            In other words, your suggestion entirely dismisses the function of a critic – or indeed an activist. “Not happy with women having no votes, Ms Pankhurst? Start your own country!”

            “No, what is unreasonable is expecting the artists, developers and highly skilled individuals to make what you want for their art pieces.”

            That’s not automatically unreasonable. It depends what you want. If what you want is fair and just, then it’s reasonable to criticise something – especially an entire industry – for not featuring it. Again, you don’t seem to want to appreciate how criticism *or* activism works – that the world has a history of change being enacted by people envisaging a better, fairer world and then making demands based on that.

            “… which will be the downfall of the video game industry as an art form.”

            You are being very silly and melodramatic. This is the same kind of doom-mongering indulged in by equally irrational people who opposed interracial marriage, same sex marriage, women being given the vote, even the majority of the population being gven the vote: “Oh, don’t do what these activists are demanding or it will be the downfall of us all!”

            Games developers will do just fine if they increase the range of roles for females in games.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Firstly, the Spiderman/woman issue. It isn’t the same pose. Spidey’s curled around a sphere. Spiderwoman is sticking her arse out in the air whilst kneeling on a flat surface.”

            The object of the pose, regardless of being on a flat wall or a round sphere (which is a gross-overstatement on your part – I hardly think a pile of thugs will be completely spherical) the idea behind the pose is to look like a spider. To say otherwise is absurd, and goes against the hundreds of examples in comic books.

            ” If the divide isn’t roughly 50/50 across a vast industry, it suggests an overall tendency to emphasise the role of men at the expense of women.”

            That is called a non-sequitur. Why must we assume mysogyny when there are plenty of other reasons that could cause this?

            “Why isn’t this true of all criticism? Let’s not have any games journalism at all – if the journalist doesn’t like something, he or she should make a game that corrects it.”

            Except in this case, there are plenty of games with female protagonists, so complaining about it is absurd.

            “That’s not automatically unreasonable. It depends what you want. If what you want is fair and just, then it’s reasonable to criticise something – especially an entire industry – for not featuring it.”

            Except most of the people criticizing don’t want to play video games. That is the point. Most of the people criticizing are the same crowd saying “video games make you violent” – They met a dead-end on that one, so they tried complaining about something else.

            “Again, you don’t seem to want to appreciate how criticism *or* activism works – that the world has a history of change being enacted by people envisaging a better, fairer world and then making demands based on that.”

            lol, yes I suppose this is the new Civil Rights Movement. Gotta make those evil game companies respect people. Your statement is even more melodramatic than anything I’ve said thus far. BTW, what you call activism, I call whining and complaining. “Let’s whine at it more, like we did to mom and dad when we wanted a PS4.”

            “This is the same kind of doom-mongering indulged in by equally irrational people who opposed interracial marriage, same sex marriage, women being given the vote, even the majority of the population being gven the vote”

            Nice, another generalization. But given that women are the largest portion of the population, and that they spend the majority of the money spent on consumer products, that would indicate that they still purchase video games that don’t have female protagonists. Vote with your wallet, especially if you’re the majority, and have access to the majority of resources.

            “Games developers will do just fine if they increase the range of roles for females in games.”

            LOL. Yes, “Lets invent new roles for just females in video games, because somehow I missed all the games where they have the same roles as men.”

          • Jon Stone

            “… the idea behind the pose is to look like a spider.”

            Having her sticking her arse high in the air doesn’t help with this.

            “That is called a non-sequitur.”

            No, it isn’t. And I feel like it’s getting to the point now where you’re constantly misusing words and phrases, possibly because you’ve picked them up from other internet arguments and misunderstood their meaning.

            “Why must we assume mysogyny when there are plenty of other reasons that could cause this?”

            I didn’t say we must assume misogyny. I said “it suggests an overall tendency to emphasise the role of men at the expense of women”, which is what must follow. Now, why would I emphasise the role of a man in a narrative? Possibly because I am a man and want to write a protagonist I identify with. Or because I assume my audience is men and will want a protagonist they will identify with.

            The problem, as usually theorised, is not that men go out of their way to exclude women, but just that they don’t think about being inclusive towards women, and so exclude them passively. It’s like forming your government and simply ‘forgetting’ to appoint any female ministers.

            “Except in this case, there are plenty of games with female protagonists, so complaining about it is absurd.”

            No, it isn’t, for the reasons I’ve gone over above and previously. Please at least make an effort to understand the point being made rather than belligerently sticking to the point of view that suits your interests.

            “Except most of the people criticizing don’t want to play video games. That is the point.”

            I don’t think that’s a point you can prove. It’s simply your assumption.

            “Nice, another generalization.”

            It’s called a comparison, or analogy.

            I missed the part where you explained how finding a wider variety of roles for female characters is going to negatively impact in any way upon gaming culture or game development? As far as I know, no one has ever explained this.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Having her sticking her arse high in the air doesn’t help with this.”

            And this is why spiderwoman is only featured in a few comic books: People whine about wanting female protagonists, and then automatically assume that a female portrayed the same way a male is portrayed is “sexist.” We aren’t getting anywhere on this one, because your go-to is “automatically assume sexism” where there may or may not be any, or it is at least ambiguous.

            “No, it isn’t. And I feel like it’s getting to the point now where you’re constantly misusing words and phrases, possibly because you’ve picked them up from other internet arguments and misunderstood their meaning.”

            I have a feeling you don’t know what a non-sequitur is.

            “The problem, as usually theorised, is not that men go out of their way to exclude women, but just that they don’t think about being inclusive towards women, and so exclude them passively. It’s like forming your government and simply ‘forgetting’ to appoint any female ministers.”

            lol, so people are whining and complaining because others don’t think of them more. Glad we got that settled – let me just add – People who complain about being excluded from other’s thoughts really shouldn’t be included, because all they care about is getting attention. (Which is exactly my point to begin with.)

            “No, it isn’t, for the reasons I’ve gone over above and previously. Please at least make an effort to understand the point being made rather than belligerently sticking to the point of view that suits your interests.”

            Its absurd. People complaining because developers “don’t think to include women often enough” is like me whining because there aren’t enough ‘Disney Prince’ movies, but several princess movies. Disney doesn’t think about men “often enough” when making movies about royalty.

            “It’s called a comparison, or analogy.”

            Not once you reference stereotypes its not.

            “I missed the part where you explained how finding a wider variety of roles for female characters is going to negatively impact in any way upon gaming culture or game development?”

            I missed the fact where you demonstrated that female protagonists do not have the same variance of roles in video games as male protagonists, but yeah I’m pretty certain that just about every genre has a female protagonist that fills the same roles as male protagonists in that genre.

            “As far as I know, no one has ever explained this.”

            As far as I know, this is not a problem. Female characters have done everything that male characters have done in video games. So what ‘wider variety of roles’ are you asking for? If you want to state something that has been missed, be specific.

          • Jon Stone

            Actually, I withdraw my complaint about your use of ‘non sequitur’. I can see how its usage would be technically correct if the criticism itself were true. So it’s more that I completely disagree with you than you not knowing what the phrase means. How is it a non sequitur? If the real world proportions of men and women are 50:50, anyone presenting a narrative or depiction which is other must be actively choosing to emphasise one over the other, for whatever reason.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            ” I can see how its usage would be technically correct if the criticism itself were true. So it’s more that I completely disagree with you than you not knowing what the phrase means.”

            What are you saying? I dunno, doesn’t mattter.

            “How is it a non sequitur?”

            Let me bring you back to the original statement by you:

            “If the divide isn’t roughly 50/50 across a vast industry, it suggests an overall tendency to emphasise the role of men at the expense of women.”

            This statement is an argument, however a poorly formulated one:

            1. An entertainment industry doesn’t have a ‘roughly’ 50/50 representation in female vs male protagonists.

            2. It therefore follows that men in the industry are emphasizing male roles at the expense of women

            Problem is, before you get to 2, you must have more evidence than just a gap in male and female protagonists. This fact alone does nothing to prove any kind of misogyny, or even an inherent bias in the industry. The non-sequitur (does not follow) is because you have not supported your argument. It is basically an assertion, and nothing more.

            ” If the real world proportions of men and women are 50:50, anyone presenting a narrative or depiction which is other must be actively choosing to emphasise one over the other, for whatever reason.”

            This is not what you said though, you said “at the expense of women” – Meaning that the game developers were deliberately trying to keep women out of games – maybe game developers merely wish to make the games they want to play, and maybe, they want to play male characters. This is not wrong, and not even close to being an issue to complain about. Game developers should be allowed to make games they want to play, and the market can decide if consumers want to play them as well. (Which, spoiler alert, the market says YES, we still like games with both male and female protagonists)

            When you frame things like a competition, then of course you can say “it’s not fair” – But it was never about a competition to see who has the most protagonists with their gender. It was about playing games, and making the games you want to make. Any other political BS is just absurd, and started by non-gamers who wanted to bring their baggage of controversy to the industry, and turn it into a competition of genders.

            Don’t like it? Where’s your video game company making games with ‘not-sexist’ female protagonists? I guarantee, even if you make one, somebody will consider your portrayal ‘sexist’ or ‘misogynistic’ – There is no “win” as far as making a game for these complainers, they will continue to find fault, because they really just want to criticize game developers. They are trolls IRL and on the internet, and people like you feed them the attention they need. Please stop feeding trolls.

          • Jon Stone

            I’m going to try to keep this short, rather than let it sprawl.

            “This is not what you said though, you said “at the expense of women” – Meaning that the game developers were deliberately trying to keep women out of games …”

            That’s not what that means, and really, this is the nub, I feel, of why people like you end up continually at odds with people like me, as well as hating on commentators like Sarkeesian. Whatever is said, you always add your own gloss, your old wild spin. Here you are doing it with the word ‘meaning’.

            That is not what those words mean. ‘At the expense of women’ does not mean, imply, indicate or come anywhere close to suggesting that ‘game developers were deliberately trying to keep women out of games’.

            Sorry if this is a tangent, but from my point of view, I see a widening gulf here between two broad groups of people who will never understand each other, and the reason seems to be that in instances like this, you and others on your side all but *insist* on construing things people have said in improbable ways.

            “I guarantee, even if you make one, somebody will consider your portrayal ‘sexist’ or ‘misogynistic’ …”

            That’s a guarantee you can’t enforce, and which I don’t think you have any grounds to make. It’s based, I think, again, on your construing the arguments made wrongly. Who has ever criticised, say, Vlambeer for being sexist?

            “Game developers should be allowed to make games they want to play, and the market can decide if consumers want to play them as well.”

            And critics should be entitled to make whatever criticisms they see fit, whether from a feminist POV or otherwise. And activists should be entitled to exert non-violent pressure towards change they want. Why do you have a problem with this? You still haven’t explained how any harm is going to come to the industry if a wider range of roles are given to female characters.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “That’s not what that means, and really, this is the nub, I feel, of why people like you end up continually at odds with people like me, as well as hating on commentators like Sarkeesian. Whatever is said, you always add your own gloss, your old wild spin. ”

            If that is not what that means, then why did Sarkeesian bother? Then why did you bother? Is it really an issue if game developers are only thinking about what games they want to make, and not “remembering” remembering to make female protagonists? Didn’t you know? Reeses forgot to make sure that their product adequately reflected the needs of vanilla fans. Only peanut butter and chocolate fans are represented.

            “That is not what those words mean. ‘At the expense of women’ does not mean, imply, indicate or come anywhere close to suggesting that ‘game developers were deliberately trying to keep women out of games’.”

            Then what precisely does it mean? The problem with Sarkeesian (and yourself) is you cannot give any concrete arguments -it’s all vague – the phrase “at the expense of women” is ambiguous to the extreme, and I doubt even you know what it means.

            “Sorry if this is a tangent, but from my point of view, I see a widening gulf here between two broad groups of people who will never understand each other, and the reason seems to be that in instances like this, you and others on your side all but *insist* on construing things people have said in improbable ways.”

            Well, I see you were able to describe the concept of “disagreement” with so much dramatics it makes me sick.

            “That’s a guarantee you can’t enforce, and which I don’t think you have any grounds to make. ”

            Nice opinion. My opinion is that whiners whine no matter how much you try to give them what they ask for. It’s essentially how they continue to make people who are naive enough bend to their will.

            “t’s based, I think, again, on your construing the arguments made wrongly. Who has ever criticised, say, Vlambeer for being sexist?”

            Vlambeer has never made a game with a female protagonist.

            “And critics should be entitled to make whatever criticisms they see fit, whether from a feminist POV or otherwise.”

            Journalists have no business repeating social justice rhetoric that is patently false. Critics should also be people who use the products they are critiquing, unlike your heroine “I don’t play games” (from her own mouth) Sarkeesian.

            “And activists should be entitled to exert non-violent pressure towards change they want. ”

            And those who disagree should be entitled to voice their opinions as well, as I am doing here.

            “You still haven’t explained how any harm is going to come to the industry if a wider range of roles are given to female characters.”

            And you still can’t tell me what the ‘wider range of roles’ being asked for is. I can say you can’t tell me what is wrong with having a “schoodlepoogernoop” in video games, but unless I define it, there is no way for you to give your opinion on whether it would be a good or bad thing in video games.

          • Jon Stone

            “Is it really an issue if game developers are only thinking about what games they want to make, and not “remembering” remembering to make female protagonists?”

            False dichotomy – remembering that half your potential audience is female doesn’t mean you don’t make the game you want to make. The point of feminist activism is to make people genuinely aware of – and attentive to – equality and inclusivity, not to make them throw something in as a sop.

            And have you ever known any game developer to say, “I didn’t want to do this, but felt I had to do it because the feminists told me to?”

            You’re complaining about nothing. Basically, a lot of activists have very strong beliefs about how gaming can be more inclusive and less passively sexist, and they express those beliefs and exert what pressure they can. Where people are convinced, they change their practices. I can’t honestly see why you have a problem with this.

            “Then what precisely does it mean?”

            If you give more room/foregrounding to one gender, it’s at the expense of the other, as night follows day. Just like if you choose to foreground a particular character in a story, it’s at the expense of other elements of the story. Women traditionally have reduced roles in narratives because the lion’s share of time and storytelling effort is focused on male characters. In a world without trenchant biases towards male centrality, some narratives would focus more on female characters, others males, and overall there would be no particular bent one way or the other.

            “… unlike your heroine …”

            I have no particular fondness for Sarkeesian. I said she made some perfectly decent points – so do lots of people. It’s your extreme negative reaction that has to be (and is not thus far) justified – saying she’s a liar and a fraudster, when no one is defrauded and these ‘lies’ are apparently just her deployment of examples which you consider ‘cherry-picking’.

            “Journalists have no business repeating social justice rhetoric that is patently false.”

            But nothing we’re discussing here is ‘patently false’.

            “And those who disagree should be entitled to voice their opinions as well, as I am doing here.”

            Yes, you should be, and I’m not calling for you to stop or be barred from expressing these opinions – I just think you’re wrong. Whereas you seem to be saying that activists have no business critiquing games or stating their opinions because you think it will somehow ruin gaming.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “False dichotomy – remembering that half your potential audience is female”

            First, the numbers for that are skewed. They included farmville and candy crush saga, games that pretty much have no protagonist to speak of, players and that is how they came up with ‘45% of gamers are female’ – Ironically, when one breaks down the numbers by genre, most of the genres that they are complaining have mostly male characters also have mostly male players.

            “The point of feminist activism is to make people genuinely aware of – and attentive to – equality and inclusivity, not to make them throw something in as a sop.”

            Maybe that is your definition, but in practice this is exactly what your idea of ‘activism’ accomplishes. Further, there are many ‘activists’ who simply go along with the whining to get things and privileges. (BTW, throw something in as a sop, is a totally CUTE way to say “throw them a bone”)

            “And have you ever known any game developer to say, ‘I didn’t want to do this, but felt I had to do it because the feminists told me to?'”

            Not exactly, but game developers are used to being rebels. My problem is gaming mediadeliberately praising some games that suck (Depression Quest is a prime example – it doesn’t even accurately depict depression, let alone the terrible game engineering), and ignoring or starting malicious rumors about other games (Tomb Raider being one prime example) by taking things out of context. This directly influences gamers about certain games and is dishonest to the extreme.

            “But nothing we’re discussing here is ‘patently false’.”

            I dunno about you, but I am. Quinn enlisted several major game journalism sites to cover up her cheating, and post smear campaigns on those who pointed it out, calling them “misogynist attacks” – when really they were just ire at her actions, and had nothing to do with gender. A male treating females this way would also incur just as much ire from the gaming community.

            “Yes, you should be, and I’m not calling for you to stop or be barred from expressing these opinions – I just think you’re wrong. Whereas you seem to be saying that activists have no business critiquing games or stating their opinions because you think it will somehow ruin gaming.”

            I’m stating activists that hate games or don’t actually play games or certain game series have no business complaining about products they will never buy or use. This is like me complaining that female fashions don’t flatter my male figure – “I will never buy and wear female clothes, but something compels me to complain about the sexism in this design.” Idiotic, trolling, and just to annoy people. And eventually it will ruin gaming. Gaming used to be about games, but as per conversations like this, and people like Sarkeesian and Quinn, it’s now a pissing contest to decide whether gamers or activists get to control the gaming industry.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            I noticed one of your statements that is so absurd:

            “Basically, a lot of activists have very strong beliefs about how gaming can be more inclusive and less passively sexist, and they express those beliefs and exert what pressure they can. Where people are convinced, they change their practices. I can’t honestly see why you have a problem with this.”

            Because this is what my 4 year old does when she wants to eat candy or ice cream all day. It’s acting like a child. If people were dying over a lack of female protagonists, then maybe I’d think differently, but it is spoiled brat ADULTS who never grew up that engage in this type of behavior.

            “If you give more room/foregrounding to one gender, it’s at the expense of the other, as night follows day. Just like if you choose to foreground a particular character in a story, it’s at the expense of other elements of the story. Women traditionally have reduced roles in narratives because the lion’s share of time and storytelling effort is focused on male characters. In a world without trenchant biases towards male centrality, some narratives would focus more on female characters, others males, and overall there would be no particular bent one way or the other.”

            You make a lot of assumptions. One is the very poor assumption that fiction is separate from other forms of information. You can argue that the majority of video game characters are male, however the majority of magazines, romance novels, and many other forms of media are for women. (And when men get together for a conference on male suicide, or to discuss paternity fraud, it is misogynistic or “conspiracy theories”) Sorry to say, but the majority of media today, aside from certain avenues of entertainment, is for women.

            Another assumption that you make is that:

            “In a world without trenchant biases towards male centrality, some narratives would focus more on female characters, others males, and overall there would be no particular bent one way or the other.”

            This is also an absurd assumption. I know many women who watch narratives about men to see the attractive actors portraying them, or to engage in fantasies about the “perfect man” – This extends beyond fiction, and even applies to the music industry. Justin Bieber, the backstreet boys, and even NSYNC prove that women want men in the spotlight to idolize them, similar to how men like attractive women in media. To claim that the current spread of male/female protagonists or narratives is due to “male centrality” is either very dishonest, or overly simplistic. Using this type of extrapolation, most strippers should be buff men, because of “male centrality.”

            “I have no particular fondness for Sarkeesian. I said she made some perfectly decent points – so do lots of people. It’s your extreme negative reaction that has to be (and is not thus far) justified – saying she’s a liar and a fraudster, when no one is defrauded and these ‘lies’ are apparently just her deployment of examples which you consider ‘cherry-picking’.”

            Well she first said she wasn’t much of a gamer, then said she has been playing games most of her life because she played mario as a child, and then we found her anti-game rant from college. So yeah, she’s been lying. More importantly, she has deliberately painted video games with a broad brush, implying that the majority of game narratives are sexist ‘because teenage boys.’ Using her cherry-picked examples, she paints a picture of the “gaming industry” that is not representative of the whole. This is like racists who cherry-pick crimes of race X and try to use that as an example of what is normative across that race. It’s not directly lying, but it is deceiving, which is similar enough that I feel no need to make a distinction.

          • le sigh

            1) you mean the one where it looks like her suit was painted on? i could totally see how that would be considered sexist. i don’t recall ever seeing peter drawn like that, not that i follow spider-man books all that closely.

            2) sure, there are games with both female and male characters, but how many of those games portray the females as more than just eye candy or disproportionately sexualized vs their male co-stars? but more importantly, why is it unreasonable to request more or stronger female protagonists? easy, it’s not. that list bit is a false dichotomy.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “i don’t recall ever seeing peter drawn like that, not that i follow spider-man books all that closely.”

            Hmmm, well for one – spiderman is always in full spandex, and for two, see my comment below to see spidey in his @ss-out glory.

            “sure, there are games with both female and male characters, but how many of those games portray the females as more than just eye candy or disproportionately sexualized vs their male co-stars? ”

            IMHO, I don’t really think it is disproportionate. Most video game heroes, male or female are this way. Just look at almost any MMORPG – Do real men walk around with arms bigger than their heads and perfectly hairless chest protruding from their clothes? I think not.

            ” but more importantly, why is it unreasonable to request more or stronger female protagonists? easy, it’s not. ”

            If I have cookies, and you go around telling everyone I’m selfish because I have cookies, and you don’t (when really you have a large number of cookies) then it is unreasonable. And this is what is done: Whining commences about how there are no meaningful female protagonists, and the games that do actually have them are ignored. So very unreasonable. Misrepresentation of facts.

          • le sigh

            that’s a false analogy. analogies have their place, but to use that instead of the wealth of real life examples you could have culled from in regards to the gaming industry, it’s pretty weak.

          • Livnthedream

            Which is why they use statistics like “half of gamers are women” as an argument when that is only true when you include stuff like Candy Crush and Farmville. When you look at AAA titles, the ones they are pointing to as “unfair” its closer to 80/20 male female.

          • le sigh

            are you suggesting that because they’re playing those games… they’re not actually gaming?

          • Livnthedream

            No, I am saying you cannot take a statistic of the whole and apply it a segment and expect that to be a fair measure. Saying that “50% of gamers is women” may be true, expecting 50% of women to be those who play competitive AAA titles is not fair for numerous reasons.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Cannot be upvoted enough times!!!

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “that’s a false analogy. analogies have their place, but to use that instead of the wealth of real life examples you could have culled from in regards to the gaming industry, it’s pretty weak.”

            What precisely is a “false analogy”? The entertainment media strives to put forth the most attractive characters and actors and accentuate these features to their audience. Done. If you think this only applies to female actors and characters you lying to yourself.

          • Livnthedream

            The problem is many of them claim that there isn’t one. Again I point to Sarkeesian who blatantly says that every single one has issues with something. By her definition you can’t have a “strong female character”.

            As for the request, honestly because I don’t feel its the right of the populace to make such demands on the industry, unless you really think what stories developers want to tell should be actively dictated by committee rather than based on what they want to make. There are a number of female characters that fit what many are considering ok, like the new Tomb Raider for example, but most of them are not in highly AAA titles because women do not buy those titles. The industry at large already has a strong hit or close down problem, making this sort of demand will only increase that issue.

          • le sigh

            “unless you really think what stories developers want to tell should be actively dictated by committee rather than based on what they want to make.” i have certainly not said that. if anything, it’s the misogynists/bigots that have been frothing at the mouth to get games to be more like how they want it. an example of this kind of culture would be the “fake gamer girl”. women aren’t seen as “true gamers”, but outsiders and fakes. “gamers” sling vitriol at developers for making sequels that appeal to a more mainstream audience.

            the requests aren’t unreasonable because as far as i know, developers reach out to the public… they go to conventions, have forums, have twitter accounts and engage with people, they read articles and comments, they are influenced by the people that are going to buy their games… they don’t produce this content in a void. treating asking for more female characters as some kind of slippery slope argument for dictating what developers should make is a pretty blatant fallacy.

          • Livnthedream

            That is utter bullshit. Where are the posts saying all women needs to be fuckdolls in games and there are too many “strong female characters” in games?

            And no, there is no slippery slope. For one who just complained about words being put in your mouth you just did an amazing job of doing that to me. Maybe you missed my point? I don’t believe Affirmative Action in regards to content is realistic Studios shouldn’t be being told that “Hey, you made 4 Call of Duty titles, now make a Tomb Raider game or you are misogynist!”. Which even that is a poor example as the extremists that you claim don’t represent the movement tore her apart as a “Man with breasts”.

          • le sigh

            “That is utter bullshit. Where are the posts saying all women needs to be fuckdolls in games and there are too many “strong female characters” in games?” are you implying that i said that? if so, where?

            “And no, there is no slippery slope. For one who just complained about words being put in your mouth you just did an amazing job of doing that to me.” -you

            “honestly because I don’t feel its the right of the populace to make such demands on the industry, unless you really think what stories developers want to tell should be actively dictated by committee rather than based on what they want to make.” -also you

            reading comprehension fail much? are you denying that developers engage with the public and get feedback as to what they want in games? what were you saying earlier about me only engaging with morons?

          • Livnthedream

            “i have certainly not said that. if anything, it’s the misogynists/bigots
            that have been frothing at the mouth to get games to be more like how
            they want it.”

            ^ That statement says that there should be forums full of men stating that that all women should be Bayonetta and all men Duke Nukem. Which is absurd.

            How do you figure that amounts to a slippery slope. You said that women should have the right to demand more women in video games. Which is one they currently have so the logical conclusion of your argument is that they should have the right to expect to have the argument met. IE They get more women in games as anything else is a problem, or their misogyny as they call it. Unless your argument really is right now that the industry completely ignores women and their voice isn’t heard at all, which is equally absurd. If that were the case we wouldn’t have the women focused games that we currently have, be that for good or ill.

          • le sigh

            “That statement says that there should be forums full of men stating that that all women should be Bayonetta and all men Duke Nukem. Which is absurd.” it is absurd, because it’s not what i’m saying at all. STRAW MAN.

            “How do you figure that amounts to a slippery slope.”

            because YOU somehow conflated that developers getting feedback from gamers would in turn be the developers being dictated into what they put into the games.

            “You said that women should have the right to demand more women in video games.” -you

            “but more importantly, why is it unreasonable to request more or stronger female protagonists?” -me. notice i didn’t say demand. words are important. it is how we are now communicating. if you can not read, you should not be engaging in written discourse.

          • Livnthedream

            What straw man? You made the claim that all these misogynist gamers are “frothing at the mouth” to keep women in check. If that isn’t what you meant then what exactly did you mean?

            Because why would you even bring it up when its no different than it is now? Last I checked no one is railing against women requesting more women in games. They are railing against feminists telling them that the industry is misogynist because there isn’t more women in games, with a move the goal posts reasoning as to why that is and how they define a strong female role model. Or did you miss Quinn’s Bingo Board drinking game, and Sarkeesian’s doctorate paper (on tv, not games, cause remember she isn’t a gamer) which only showed positives for what amount to Civ6: Womens Edition as the only viable female lead character.

          • Spartanlemur

            The painted on suit rationale is pretty simple. It’s marketed towards teenage boys who like that kind of thing. I’m well past that stage now, and women (unless lesbian) I imagine aren’t interested either, but it’s not our right to get angry because publishers don’t make comics aimed at us!

            If we want more realistic stuff aimed at mature audiences, or women, or the LGBT community, or whoever, we need to pitch up the money en masse, and not complain about other people creating content for other people!

            I believe that if spider woman was aimed at women (if women read more comic books) she would be wearing more of a suit. Same goes for Vampirella. Though I’m not a woman, so this is obviously just speculation.

            My point is that if these arguments are going to have any justification, they’re going to need to use evidence to make the case that if women are the intended target market, devs/artists are mistaking their preferences, or if they’re not, devs are underestimating their membership, and could make more sales by making games aimed at them. For broad appeal games, compromises must be made proportional to market makeup (i.e. 20% female, 80% male, but this will change with time).

            I think the issue right now is that many women game on iOS/Android, while those who opt for consoles or PCs are still relatively few. We all win here if we can expand the core market by encouraging women who game on mobile devices to switch to core games (more money in gaming overall and more incentive to cater games to the desires of women), so perhaps that’s where the focus should be instead?

          • Rich

            If you could name ten games with playable female protagonists who aren’t simply there as eye candy (Tombraider, Bayonetta) I’d be impressed. Name a hundred and I’ll be amazed. I would also like to claim that they’re are lots of things preventing people from making their own games, which of course deviates heavily from the discussion on cultural representation.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “If you could name ten games with playable female protagonists who aren’t simply there as eye candy (Tombraider, Bayonetta) I’d be impressed.”

            Can you name 10 games where playable male protagonists wouldn’t classify as “eye candy”? Can you explain to me why female gamers wouldn’t want to play sexy characters? I’m married to a gamer girl, and she makes her MMORPG characters sexy, even down to the choice of clothing. (Who wouldn’t?)

            This is also a point of debate. What constitutes being “eye candy”? Are attractive female protagonists “only eye candy” to you? Is the old Tomb Raider only there for “eye candy”? What about the movie? Do you think that Jolie did a “sexist” portrayal of the character?

            This is the classic ‘moving goalpost’ – “You better have games with female protagonists – oh wait, you do? Well those are invalid, because I think they are sexist.”

            “Name a hundred and I’ll be amazed.”

            Yeah, well, when you make the criteria using a double-standard, of course it is impossible to find them. This is a dishonest, (or extremely misled) take on this topic.

          • God ov Hover Hand

            “If you could name ten games with playable female protagonists who aren’t simply there as eye candy”

            This sounds like a fun challenge:

            Heather Mason, Silent Hill 3
            Mio Amakura, Fatal Frame 2
            Nilin, Remember Me
            Shion, Xenosaga
            Jill Valentine, Resident Evil
            Aurora, Child of Light
            April Ryan, The Last Journey
            Zoe Castillo, Dreamfall
            Ms. Pac Man, Ms. Pac Man
            Samus, any Metroid
            Can’t think of 100 off the spot…
            Anyways, I think the modern Lara Croft counts as a legitimate female protagonist. Sure, she is pretty, easy on the eyes, and has a chest comparable to her old 90s self but she doesn’t exist to solely for the purpose of pleasing you visually. Being eye candy doesn’t discredit you as a good video game character as long as you have depth and multiple dimensions.

          • Livnthedream

            Again, that is the issue. This is the face of modern feminism, which is exactly why many other feminists have an issue with it like http://honeybadgerbrigade.com/radio/zoe-quinn-and-the-feminist-mean-girls/

            They are far more reasonable and actually sorta realistic. Unfortunately they don’t have the ear of popular media. I am tired of hearing from the likes of Arkeesian and Quinn, the widely accepted feminist face of gaming.

          • Ben (Broken)

            Honey Badger Radio is composed of women who fight for men’s rights. I don’t think I’ve ever heard Karen or the others ever refer to themselves as feminists. Not trying to be an asshole,just clarifying. lol.

          • Livnthedream

            It certainly comes off as mens rights when you are comparing it against the likes of Sarkeesian and Quinn. But then when your motto is “If you aren’t with us you are against us” being right of center but left of far right still makes you a bad guy. Er woman. Oh damn that misogyny.

          • Ben (Broken)

            Heh,indeed!

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “you’re not describing feminists. those are not examples of feminists. you’re pointing to misandrists and clueless assholes and saying ‘look at these feminists’.”

            Actually, they are both misandrists and feminists. You’re not really going to use the “not all feminists are like that” argument are you? SOME feminists are definitely like that, and enough to make a lot of drama in the media.

            “the fundamentals of feminism are not about denigrating men. it is not about knocking down a society with patriarchal tendencies and substituting it with a matriarchal one.”

            That may not be the stated goal, but then, the stated goal of Hitler wasn’t to kill 6 million Jews either.

          • Hyena

            Remember when there was “No such thing as Misandry!”?

            Pepperidge Farms remembers.

      • Ben (Broken)

        A simple question if I may interject. If you are about “equality for everyone” why not simply call yourself an egalitarian? It means what you want it to mean without excluding anyone. By contrast the word “feminism” means “female” or “feminine”. As in it’s not a word that includes all people. And I apologize for being bitter but most sjw/feminists I meet come off as self righteous and condescending. Instead of being about “love,equality,and understanding” they are usually bigots who merely change the goal post on who to scapegoat and hate. Playing musical chairs with someone’s anger,loathing, and victim complex does not make it morally right. A person is a racist regardless of if they target Asians,Latinos,Blacks,or Whites. And a person is also a gender bigot if they put their gender above the other. Feminists are not exempt from this logic.

        If it means anything to you, I’ve gotten into heated arguments with the most unreasonable of mras too. And it’s funny how when I disagree with them they call me a feminist yet when I disagree with feminists they usually call me an mra!

        I will agree that there are a few good people on both sides of the gender war but the unreasonable fanatics are so vast in number I merely try to take the best points from both feminists and mras yet prevent myself from being 100% swallowed by either ideology.

        Are women slut shamed unfairly? All the time. What happened to Felicia Garcia was deplorable. She jumped in front of a train because bullies slut shammed her to suicide. (But let us not confuse “why” gamers are mad at Zoe in particular. It’s a matter of nepotism and journalistic cronyism.) But whereas women get slut shamed men in western society often get run down by divorce courts,alimony payments, and child support payments. While the man is not always the right party in the marriage the family courts tend to favor women regardless of either spouses character and integrity. The mere accusation of rape or other sexual crimes can ruin a man’s reputation instantaneously without any proof being presented. Men are also expected to provide and to sacrifice in most situations.

        If all this was not enough heterosexuality is shamed in our society. If I go to a strip club I’m objectifying women. It doesn’t matter if the dancer is getting paid and works there of her own free will. I’m the one contributing to “teh evil patriarchy”. As an artist I actually draw scantily clad female characters and have even drawn hentai. Yet as much as sjws whine I refuse to change. Why? It’s a friggin illustration! Don’t like it? You don’t have to look at it! “Fictional characters” and “art” don’t secretly contribute to some conspiracy laden rape culture. Yes, disturbed people do disturbed things and they sometimes say they were inspired by a book,a game or a music cd. However,those people were insane and unbalanced to begin with. We cannot censor all of entertainment just because the human race occasionally pops out a criminal mind.

        Again I ask you,why not simply call yourself an egalitarian?

        • le sigh

          well the simple answer is because feminism and egalitarian aren’t the same thing. feminism is a subset of egalitarianism. it’s like saying why don’t you call yourself a christian when you’re a catholic. it’s just focusing on certain issues. feminism is also about addressing issues with men, not just women. what you might hear as the “patriarchal society”, stuff that says “if you’re not tough or you cry, you’re a pussy.” “real men don’t do x”. “man up.” “grow some balls.” denigrating men that have any kind of aspect that is regarded as “feminine”. the rape culture and victim blaming. a real feminist wouldn’t approve of a man being falsely accused of rape. etc, etc. etc. that’s REAL feminism. i hope that answers your question.

          • Ben (Broken)

            Truly? You address men’s issues under the name of “fem”-i-nism? I wish I could believe that. The thing is I cannot. Nor is your Christian/Catholic metaphor accurate. I’m an egalitarian because I care about both men’s and women’s rights equally. The fact I’m not a feminist does not make my claim untrue. You’re not going to strong arm me into being bias or into compromising my core beliefs. And this is when I stop responding to you. Good day!

          • le sigh

            LOL wtf?! please, you asked a question and i answered it. there’s no strong arming here. the fact that you took it that way says a lot more about you than it does me. i have zero problem with you not responding to any of this, clearly you’d rather just spew nonsense and remain ignorant than actually educate yourself on anything you attempt to talk about. lmfao

    • BabaYaga

      I can just tell you. Dont listen and dont care about what these people say to you. If you are an asshole when you play online be it and enjoy it. If you are nice at times enjoy it too. We shouldnt care what these lost SJW´s have to say about their own conflicts. LEt them talk… you cant win an argument, never. Without reason there is no way to win a war against such a stupidty!

  • FL

    THANK YOU !!

  • FL

    THANK YOU !!

  • Sam Hillyer

    you lost me at the very end of this.

  • Sam Hillyer

    you lost me at the very end of this.

  • LookAtThisIdiot

    > complains about game journalism telling people how to think or feel
    > tells people how to think or feel

    It is adorable that these anti Zoe Quinn mens rights limp dicks think they are any different from the SJWs.

    • K Pow

      you do have the correct screen name =)

    • BabaYaga

      anti Zoe BS. No one realy wants that chick doing more interactive books that cause depression. What I want as a gamer are games that make fun and you Sir Lanceblast and companions are in the wrong place i think. Why dont you paint some signs in rainbow colors, go out in a park and have a picnic ?

      And i think that the majority of gamers who realy play games dont care about you and the many tears and hate you want to share with us…. buhuhuh. Now please leave and lock the door yourself!

      • le sigh

        for someone who’s talking about how it’s all about the games and not talking about anything else about them… you sure seem to be talking about everything else and not playing them.

        • BabaYaga

          I am a modder since 2001 and you are definately not the person who can tell me anything about games. So now you can either bow down or just have a conversation with your demon Alice!

          • le sigh

            i’m sorry, i didn’t realize i was dealing with such a master of reality here.

          • BabaYaga

            im a master of looking trough the agendas of people like you who have nothing to do with games or creating them! Also am i HEman MAster of the Big Bang and Shebang, banger of the feminists!

          • le sigh

            oh cool. tell me my agenda then, please!!!

          • BabaYaga

            since i´m realy bored atm and you are a honorable member of the Lanceblasts i tell you my secret now what i know about you. Your agenda is to make no sense. No sense in regards to gaming at all. Thats it. Because what was your purpose again ?

          • le sigh

            1) no idea what the lanceblasts are.

            2) your responses are full of non sequiturs, thus, not making any sense. my posts are in response to what people are saying… about the article… which is the topic at hand. which makes perfect logical sense.

            3) “Because what was your purpose again?” see 2.

          • Livnthedream

            When are you going to stop trolling? Or are you actually going to answer any of the rebuttals with the proof you requested?

            Yeah BabaYaga is shooting of his mouth, ignore it and discuss it like an adult please.

          • le sigh

            how exactly am i trolling?

          • Livnthedream

            By only really engaging with the morons, and even doing that its antagonizing because they are morons.

          • le sigh

            i’ve been engaging with you, are you saying you’re a moron?

          • BabaYaga

            Two morons are speaking to each other. I like that!

          • Livnthedream

            The only evidence you have acknowledged are the examples you don’t agree with. Which unfortunately for you is incorrect. Or should I link the numerous tv appearances by Sarkeesian and the “women’s conferences” that espouse the same doctrine?

          • le sigh

            i didn’t acknowledge the ones you want me to… and that’s my fauly, how? there’s no tacit consent of what i’m not addressing, could it be that i don’t have enough knowledge or don’t feel like addressing them? is that okay with you? also, i wouldn’t call pointing out logical fallacies and arguments that are contrary to reality and evidence as simply things i don’t agree with.

          • Livnthedream

            Except nothing that you have pointed out in regards to me is contrary to evidence, in fact I have provided evidence on everything asked, but you haven’t changed your opinion. I dunno about you but I change mine in the face of evidence.

    • Livnthedream

      Yes, lets continue to push the us vs them rather than trying to form an actual argument and possibly reach a real conclusion.

    • GreyKnight

      If you were truly on some sort of moral high ground you would encourage debate and a peaceful resolution but oh look,you’re calling people limp dicks. How mature! Admit it, you don’t want peace. You want to continue to antagonize gamers for profit.

    • Spartanlemur

      There are no “men’s rights activists”. There are “women’s rights activists” and the people that oppose them. Feminists and anti-feminists.

      That’s because activism implies a shift from the status quo, and as essentially nobody actually want to take away rights which women have, this is not a movement.
      We merely have people calling for change (SJWs) and people who oppose it.

  • LookAtThisIdiot

    > complains about game journalism telling people how to think or feel
    > tells people how to think or feel

    It is adorable that these anti Zoe Quinn mens rights limp dicks think they are any different from the SJWs.

    • K Pow

      you do have the correct screen name =)

    • BabaYaga

      anti Zoe BS. No one realy wants that chick doing more interactive books that cause depression. What I want as a gamer are games that make fun and you Sir Lanceblast and companions are in the wrong place i think. Why dont you paint some signs in rainbow colors, go out in a park and have a picnic ?

      And i think that the majority of gamers who realy play games dont care about you and the many tears and hate you want to share with us…. buhuhuh. Now please leave and lock the door yourself!

      • le sigh

        for someone who’s talking about how it’s all about the games and not talking about anything else about them… you sure seem to be talking about everything else and not playing them.

        • BabaYaga

          I am a modder since 2001 and you are definately not the person who can tell me anything about games. So now you can either bow down or just have a conversation with your demon Alice!

          • le sigh

            i’m sorry, i didn’t realize i was dealing with such a master of reality here.

          • BabaYaga

            im a master of looking trough the agendas of people like you who have nothing to do with games or creating them! Also am i HEman MAster of the Big Bang and Shebang, banger of the feminists!

          • le sigh

            oh cool. tell me my agenda then, please!!!

          • BabaYaga

            since i´m realy bored atm and you are a honorable member of the Lanceblasts i tell you my secret now what i know about you. Your agenda is to make no sense. No sense in regards to gaming at all. Thats it. Because what was your purpose again ?

          • le sigh

            1) no idea what the lanceblasts are.

            2) your responses are full of non sequiturs, thus, not making any sense. my posts are in response to what people are saying… about the article… which is the topic at hand. which makes perfect logical sense.

            3) “Because what was your purpose again?” see 2.

          • Livnthedream

            When are you going to stop trolling? Or are you actually going to answer any of the rebuttals with the proof you requested?

            Yeah BabaYaga is shooting of his mouth, ignore it and discuss it like an adult please.

          • le sigh

            how exactly am i trolling?

          • Livnthedream

            By only really engaging with the morons, and even doing that its antagonizing because they are morons.

          • le sigh

            i’ve been engaging with you, are you saying you’re a moron?

          • BabaYaga

            Two morons are speaking to each other. I like that!

          • Livnthedream

            The only evidence you have acknowledged are the examples you don’t agree with. Which unfortunately for you is incorrect. Or should I link the numerous tv appearances by Sarkeesian and the “women’s conferences” that espouse the same doctrine?

          • le sigh

            i didn’t acknowledge the ones you want me to… and that’s my fauly, how? there’s no tacit consent of what i’m not addressing, could it be that i don’t have enough knowledge or don’t feel like addressing them? is that okay with you? also, i wouldn’t call pointing out logical fallacies and arguments that are contrary to reality and evidence as simply things i don’t agree with.

          • Livnthedream

            Except nothing that you have pointed out in regards to me is contrary to evidence, in fact I have provided evidence on everything asked, but you haven’t changed your opinion. I dunno about you but I change mine in the face of evidence.

    • Livnthedream

      Yes, lets continue to push the us vs them rather than trying to form an actual argument and possibly reach a real conclusion.

    • GreyKnight

      If you were truly on some sort of moral high ground you would encourage debate and a peaceful resolution but oh look,you’re calling people limp dicks. How mature! Admit it, you don’t want peace. You want to continue to antagonize gamers for profit.

    • Spartanlemur

      There are no “men’s rights activists”. There are “women’s rights activists” and the people that oppose them. Feminists and anti-feminists.

      That’s because activism implies a shift from the status quo, and as essentially nobody actually want to take away rights which women have, this is not a movement.
      We merely have people calling for change (SJWs) and people who oppose it.

  • Richard

    This whole article is an epic fail. Feminist Frequency an ‘extremist group’. Rly? White knights referring to crusaders? Using the term “SJW “, a signal word suggesting the user is a bigoted primitive keyboard warrior with little to no hope of ever being able to relate to women. There’s simply no way of taking this thinly veiled jab at Quinn/Fish seriously. It seems to have pleased the bigot mob though, congratulations on that, even though I think reproducing their paranoid delusions might be counter productive.

    • kingdo goodbomber

      The only bigot involved in this is Zoe Quinn, who claimed that infidelity is rape while privately trying to convince her then boyfriend to have unprotected sex with her only a couple of hours after she had sex with her married boss.

  • Richard

    This whole article is an epic fail. Feminist Frequency an ‘extremist group’. Rly? White knights referring to crusaders? Using the term “SJW “, a signal word suggesting the user is a bigoted primitive keyboard warrior with little to no hope of ever being able to relate to women. There’s simply no way of taking this thinly veiled jab at Quinn/Fish seriously. It seems to have pleased the bigot mob though, congratulations on that, even though I think reproducing their paranoid delusions might be counter productive.

    • kingdo goodbomber

      The only bigot involved in this is Zoe Quinn, who claimed that infidelity is rape while privately trying to convince her then boyfriend to have unprotected sex with her only a couple of hours after she had sex with her married boss.

  • kingdo goodbomber

    the whole situation has nothing to do with bigotry and everything to do with a bunch of authoritarians trying to hijack a hobby and make all participants conform to their view.

    Does anyone notice how NONE of these social justice warriors actually make games? Good games anyway. Depression Quest isn’t a game it is a poorly designed website. Their figurehead Anita is a liar who was filming fake testimonials for telemarketing pyramid schemes before she let her puppetmaster Jonathon into her pants. She was also caught on video saying she doesn’t even play games while in College even though she claims to have been playing since she was 10 years old.

    They are all frauds and sociopaths and attention seeking famewh0res on quests for paid speaking gigs.

    • BabaYaga

      thats what i said and thought from day one. Not about gaming but feminism and gender aka BS in gaming !

    • Richard

      There are a bunch of decent, bright and insightful people (what you’d call SJWs) on major studios, sorry if I’m running your hobby. Doesn’t stop 9/10 massor releases from being retarded reskins of older games but still.

      • kingdo goodbomber

        yeah, nitpicking the creative minds who do the actual work because they are desperate hipsters who don’t have the talent to create anything themselves.

      • kingdo goodbomber

        who would want to make new IP in this industry when there are bunch of nitpicking no-talent social justice whiner special snowflakes who spend all their time waiting to take offense at things they lack the talent to create themselves?

  • kingdo goodbomber

    the whole situation has nothing to do with bigotry and everything to do with a bunch of authoritarians trying to hijack a hobby and make all participants conform to their view.

    Does anyone notice how NONE of these social justice warriors actually make games? Good games anyway. Depression Quest isn’t a game it is a poorly designed website. Their figurehead Anita is a liar who was filming fake testimonials for telemarketing pyramid schemes before she let her puppetmaster Jonathon into her pants. She was also caught on video saying she doesn’t even play games while in College even though she claims to have been playing since she was 10 years old.

    They are all frauds and sociopaths and attention seeking famewh0res on quests for paid speaking gigs.

    • BabaYaga

      thats what i said and thought from day one. Not about gaming but feminism and gender aka BS in gaming !

    • Richard

      There are a bunch of decent, bright and insightful people (what you’d call SJWs) on major studios, sorry if I’m running your hobby. Doesn’t stop 9/10 massor releases from being retarded reskins of older games but still.

      • kingdo goodbomber

        yeah, nitpicking the creative minds who do the actual work because they are desperate hipsters who don’t have the talent to create anything themselves.

      • kingdo goodbomber

        who would want to make new IP in this industry when there are bunch of nitpicking no-talent social justice whiner special snowflakes who spend all their time waiting to take offense at things they lack the talent to create themselves?

  • BabaYaga

    MAybe the problem is soon we have many interactive books being pushed by the press and so greenlighted trough steam because of the people who are not involved in gaming but social clubs. No one can tell me that it was all just gamers who thought, hey wow great idea. A depresive game from a wanna be game dev with a social political agenda and now it made BOOM, sexists are everywhere just because many people just think, She and the game sucks. Not that she is a woman but a person who just sucks and so her “game” + the way how it was hyped.

  • BabaYaga

    MAybe the problem is soon we have many interactive books being pushed by the press and so greenlighted trough steam because of the people who are not involved in gaming but social clubs. No one can tell me that it was all just gamers who thought, hey wow great idea. A depresive game from a wanna be game dev with a social political agenda and now it made BOOM, sexists are everywhere just because many people just think, She and the game sucks. Not that she is a woman but a person who just sucks and so her “game” + the way how it was hyped.

  • kingdo goodbomber

    Thunderf00t has done good work exposing all these social justice frauds for what they are: hucksters and charlatans. I suggest everyone watch his latest video on Quinngate as well as his other videos about toxic third wave authoritarianism… er, I mean third wave feminism.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/Thunderf00t

    • Feminist

      Maybe read a book instead? Learn something maybe?

      • Gregg Braddoch

        Oh yeah, lets go back to the whole “that’s not what feminism is” argument. Well, feminism may not be defined as is portrayed in the video above, but the net effects are borne out in reality.

        Maybe you should read some feminist literature, see the laws feminist organizations have opposed and pushed, etc.

        And maybe feminists should leave video game developers alone, instead of trolling an entire industry.

    • Jon Stone

      ‘Exposing’? You’re a fanatic.

      • kingdo goodbomber

        Make sure Zoe sees this post, maybe she’ll let you diddle her behind the Mountain Dew display at the next drunken con, as a reward?

        • Jon Stone

          You’re so fanatical you assume that anyone who calls you out on it knows or gives a damn about Zoe Quinn?

          • kingdo goodbomber

            if you link this to her twitter feed I’ll bet she’ll at least let you get to second base. She is a strong woman feminist and stuff.

          • Jon Stone

            But I don’t want to get to second base. I’m spoken for and Quinn’s not my type.

            Is this all because you tried to lick her at an expo or something?

  • kingdo goodbomber

    Thunderf00t has done good work exposing all these social justice frauds for what they are: hucksters and charlatans. I suggest everyone watch his latest video on Quinngate as well as his other videos about toxic third wave authoritarianism… er, I mean third wave feminism.

    https://www.youtube.com/user/Thunderf00t

    • Feminist

      Maybe read a book instead? Learn something maybe?

      • Gregg Braddoch

        Oh yeah, lets go back to the whole “that’s not what feminism is” argument. Well, feminism may not be defined as is portrayed in the video above, but the net effects are borne out in reality.

        Maybe you should read some feminist literature, see the laws feminist organizations have opposed and pushed, etc.

        And maybe feminists should leave video game developers alone, instead of trolling an entire industry.

    • Jon Stone

      ‘Exposing’? You’re a fanatic.

      • kingdo goodbomber

        Make sure Zoe sees this post, maybe she’ll let you diddle her behind the Mountain Dew display at the next drunken con, as a reward?

        • Jon Stone

          You’re so fanatical you assume that anyone who calls you out on it knows or gives a damn about Zoe Quinn?

          • kingdo goodbomber

            if you link this to her twitter feed I’ll bet she’ll at least let you get to second base. She is a strong woman feminist and stuff.

          • Jon Stone

            But I don’t want to get to second base. I’m spoken for and Quinn’s not my type.

            Is this all because you tried to lick her at an expo or something?

  • kingdo goodbomber

    “I don’t have any talent, so I’m going to hijack yours instead! Now do as I want OR ELSE…. MISOGYNIST!!!
    -Social Justice Whiners

    • Jon Stone

      “a bunch of authoritarians trying to hijack a hobby and make all participants conform to their view” says the person who keeps posting the same vitriolic nonsense repeatedly on a discussion thread to drown out more nuanced comment.

      • kingdo goodbomber

        nuance, lol, like rationalizing and apologizing for an amoral, unethical sociopath named Zoe Quinn simply because she fits your narrative?

        • Jon Stone

          And when have I done that? I don’t know Zoe Quinn. From what I’ve read today, I don’t think I’d trust or like her. But that’s true of lots of people in lots of industries who find a way to manipulate other people. Her being a social activist doesn’t really add anything to the story other than – shock, horror – social activists can be bad people too. I already knew that, thanks.

          Also, more irony – you talk about something fitting my “narrative” when it’s you who is eager to hamfistedly impose a story about the dreaded ‘SJWs’ over an incident that’s really just about concerns over nepotism.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            LOL. Yes, because the nepotist doesn’t claim to be a “social justice warrior” right? Oh wait, that is her defense: “SJWs defend me because misogyny!” I did nothing wrong, its all those women-haters!

            That is the majority of the articles on gaming websites about the topic, despite the fact she did actually cheat with several gaming journalists (one of which whom was married)

            So SJWs are very pertainent – they are the ones that allow this BS to be fed to people to protect lying “activist” developer just because she’s female and unhappy.

          • Jon Stone

            Quinn didn’t cheat with ‘several gaming journalists’. Only one of the men was a journalist – the others were developers.

            If it is indeed the case that the majority of the websites are covering this from the angle you say they are, that’s because when people like you perpetuate the untruth that she slept with a bunch of journalists or ‘slept her way to the top’, it betrays the fact that you’re willing to twist the truth in order to find ways to attack a female game developer.

            I’ve been trying to take this point by point with you, Gregg, but the fact is you do come across to me as someone who has an irrational vendetta against feminists and so-called ‘SJWs’, as do a lot of people posting in this forum.

            You have to understand that I’m just some guy sitting in London who follows gaming casually and is interested in social activism, but also spends most of his time working in other fields. Most of my friends are not into gaming at all. I consider myself, therefore, to have something of an outsider’s perspective, And it is really, sadly, ringingly clear that there is a huge sect of (mostly American, it seems) gamers who are bonkers conspiracy theorists who believe that their industry is somehow being overtaken by feminism, who have been sold a bizarre narrative of women and ‘SJWs’ coming to take away their toys. Among that portion of gamers, there also seem to be some truly hateful, deranged individuals.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Quinn didn’t cheat with ‘several gaming journalists’. Only one of the men was a journalist – the others were developers.”

            Oh my bad, that makes it so much better.

            “If it is indeed the case that the majority of the websites are covering this from the angle you say they are, that’s because when people like you perpetuate the untruth that she slept with a bunch of journalists or ‘slept her way to the top’, it betrays the fact that you’re willing to twist the truth in order to find ways to attack a female game developer.”

            Oh, so banging your boss isn’t trying to “sleep your way to the top”? A little flash game doesn’t make somebody a developer, it makes them a hobbyist at best. I made simple games in high school, but I sure as hell don’t consider myself a ‘game developer’.

            “I’ve been trying to take this point by point with you, Gregg, but the fact is you do come across to me as someone who has an irrational vendetta against feminists and so-called ‘SJWs’, as do a lot of people posting in this forum. ”

            It’s not irrational, it is perfectly rational. You just accept their irrational reasoning on why they should be able to whine and get what they want.

            “‘Irrational’ because I completely fail to see how any of this is going to ruin gaming.”

            Yes, I guess that Sarkeesian who was against video games, now suddenly thinks they’re ok. You are gullible beyond extreme. Sarkeesian, and whiners like her don’t like video games, and merely want to ruin the fun of those who do. They couldn’t do this from the outside, so they pretend to like games and then prey on the gaming community. (You can find a video of an anti-game presentation by Sarkeesian here in the comments). As far as Quinn, video games and technology are little more than a fashion statement or trend to her. She doesn’t care about real games, so long as she can continue claiming “I’m a game developer” and getting favors and defense from poor naive chumps like yourself.

            “You have to understand that I’m just some guy sitting in London who follows gaming casually and is interested in social activism, but also spends most of his time working in other fields. ”

            So you are not what I’d call a ‘real gamer’, yet somehow you think that you can tell me what is what about the gaming industry.

            “And it is really, sadly, ringingly clear that there is a huge sect of (mostly American, it seems) gamers who are bonkers conspiracy theorists who believe that their industry is somehow being overtaken by feminism, who have been sold a bizarre narrative of women and ‘SJWs’ coming to take away their toys.”

            It’s not a conspiracy theory. Maybe in the UK it is different, but in America there is a large disparity between men and women. (And unless the man belongs to the plutocracy, he comes out substantially below the average female in terms of rights ,etc.)

            Further, we have people who overtly state that they weren’t gamers, and people who also overtly were against video games (sarkeesian) coming into the video game industry and trying to tell gamers and developers how games should be made. And perhaps feminists are different in the UK, but in America, the women are DEMANDING that these things be changed.

            “Among that portion of gamers, there also seem to be some truly hateful, deranged individuals.”

            So because I disagree with you I’m deranged? Or are you counting internet trolls (who appear in every internet community, not just the gaming community) as those who are in the group of “conspiracy theorists” – See, you like to think yourself as superior to those who have a differing opinion, so you are willing to ascribe the actions of a class of people who say hurtful things for kicks to people who disagree with your opinion. That kind of bias is just sad. It’s like saying “Hitler once said good about science, so therefore all scientists are bad people.” It doesn’t work that way, anywhere except your own mind.

  • kingdo goodbomber

    “I don’t have any talent, so I’m going to hijack yours instead! Now do as I want OR ELSE…. MISOGYNIST!!!
    -Social Justice Whiners

    • Jon Stone

      “a bunch of authoritarians trying to hijack a hobby and make all participants conform to their view” says the person who keeps posting the same vitriolic nonsense repeatedly on a discussion thread to drown out more nuanced comment.

      • kingdo goodbomber

        nuance, lol, like rationalizing and apologizing for an amoral, unethical sociopath named Zoe Quinn simply because she fits your narrative?

        • Jon Stone

          And when have I done that? I don’t know Zoe Quinn. From what I’ve read today, I don’t think I’d trust or like her. But that’s true of lots of people in lots of industries who find a way to manipulate other people. Her being a social activist doesn’t really add anything to the story other than – shock, horror – social activists can be bad people too. I already knew that, thanks.

          Also, more irony – you talk about something fitting my “narrative” when it’s you who is eager to hamfistedly impose a story about the dreaded ‘SJWs’ over an incident that’s really just about concerns over nepotism.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            LOL. Yes, because the nepotist doesn’t claim to be a “social justice warrior” right? Oh wait, that is her defense: “SJWs defend me because misogyny!” I did nothing wrong, its all those women-haters!

            That is the majority of the articles on gaming websites about the topic, despite the fact she did actually cheat with several gaming journalists (one of which whom was married)

            So SJWs are very pertainent – they are the ones that allow this BS to be fed to people to protect lying “activist” developer just because she’s female and unhappy.

          • Jon Stone

            Quinn didn’t cheat with ‘several gaming journalists’. Only one of the men was a journalist – the others were developers.

            If it is indeed the case that the majority of the websites are covering this from the angle you say they are, that’s because when people like you perpetuate the untruth that she slept with a bunch of journalists or ‘slept her way to the top’, it betrays the fact that you’re willing to twist the truth in order to find ways to attack a female game developer.

            I’ve been trying to take this point by point with you, Gregg, but the fact is you do come across to me as someone who has an irrational vendetta against feminists and so-called ‘SJWs’, as do a lot of people posting in this forum.

            You have to understand that I’m just some guy sitting in London who follows gaming casually and is interested in social activism, but also spends most of his time working in other fields. Most of my friends are not into gaming at all. I consider myself, therefore, to have something of an outsider’s perspective, And it is really, sadly, ringingly clear that there is a huge sect of (mostly American, it seems) gamers who are bonkers conspiracy theorists who believe that their industry is somehow being overtaken by feminism, who have been sold a bizarre narrative of women and ‘SJWs’ coming to take away their toys. Among that portion of gamers, there also seem to be some truly hateful, deranged individuals.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Quinn didn’t cheat with ‘several gaming journalists’. Only one of the men was a journalist – the others were developers.”

            Oh my bad, that makes it so much better.

            “If it is indeed the case that the majority of the websites are covering this from the angle you say they are, that’s because when people like you perpetuate the untruth that she slept with a bunch of journalists or ‘slept her way to the top’, it betrays the fact that you’re willing to twist the truth in order to find ways to attack a female game developer.”

            Oh, so banging your boss isn’t trying to “sleep your way to the top”? A little flash game doesn’t make somebody a developer, it makes them a hobbyist at best. I made simple games in high school, but I sure as hell don’t consider myself a ‘game developer’.

            “I’ve been trying to take this point by point with you, Gregg, but the fact is you do come across to me as someone who has an irrational vendetta against feminists and so-called ‘SJWs’, as do a lot of people posting in this forum. ”

            It’s not irrational, it is perfectly rational. You just accept their irrational reasoning on why they should be able to whine and get what they want.

            “‘Irrational’ because I completely fail to see how any of this is going to ruin gaming.”

            Yes, I guess that Sarkeesian who was against video games, now suddenly thinks they’re ok. You are gullible beyond extreme. Sarkeesian, and whiners like her don’t like video games, and merely want to ruin the fun of those who do. They couldn’t do this from the outside, so they pretend to like games and then prey on the gaming community. (You can find a video of an anti-game presentation by Sarkeesian here in the comments). As far as Quinn, video games and technology are little more than a fashion statement or trend to her. She doesn’t care about real games, so long as she can continue claiming “I’m a game developer” and getting favors and defense from poor naive chumps like yourself.

            “You have to understand that I’m just some guy sitting in London who follows gaming casually and is interested in social activism, but also spends most of his time working in other fields. ”

            So you are not what I’d call a ‘real gamer’, yet somehow you think that you can tell me what is what about the gaming industry.

            “And it is really, sadly, ringingly clear that there is a huge sect of (mostly American, it seems) gamers who are bonkers conspiracy theorists who believe that their industry is somehow being overtaken by feminism, who have been sold a bizarre narrative of women and ‘SJWs’ coming to take away their toys.”

            It’s not a conspiracy theory. Maybe in the UK it is different, but in America there is a large disparity between men and women. (And unless the man belongs to the plutocracy, he comes out substantially below the average female in terms of rights ,etc.)

            Further, we have people who overtly state that they weren’t gamers, and people who also overtly were against video games (sarkeesian) coming into the video game industry and trying to tell gamers and developers how games should be made. And perhaps feminists are different in the UK, but in America, the women are DEMANDING that these things be changed.

            “Among that portion of gamers, there also seem to be some truly hateful, deranged individuals.”

            So because I disagree with you I’m deranged? Or are you counting internet trolls (who appear in every internet community, not just the gaming community) as those who are in the group of “conspiracy theorists” – See, you like to think yourself as superior to those who have a differing opinion, so you are willing to ascribe the actions of a class of people who say hurtful things for kicks to people who disagree with your opinion. That kind of bias is just sad. It’s like saying “Hitler once said good about science, so therefore all scientists are bad people.” It doesn’t work that way, anywhere except your own mind.

  • Dbusterplus

    Personally, I’m glad this whole situation unfolded the way it did.

    The attempted takeover of gaming as a culture by totalitarian social engineers has finally been met with a valid resistance.

    By far the most aggressive, hateful, nonsensical monsters I’ve ever dealt with online are SJWs, and they spent years infiltrating the gaming journalism industry by the means of writing clickbait trash that attract the stupid and vocal, of which they are legion.

    Kotaku led the way, and from it spawned Polygon, these two are the ringleaders of the SJW movement. And the other sites quickly fell in line. Rock, Paper Shotgun almost dived into the brainwashing headfirst. The Escapist kind of fell in line after a while, and Destructoid’s readership has done well fighting it off, kind of reaching an understanding and weird balance.

    Joystiq to this point seems like the ones who have done the best job deflecting a huge amount of this nonsense, instead choosing to largely report on just the news, at least mostly of what I’ve seen, as it’s not my main stomping ground.

    Either way, this was the shot in the arm that gaming coverage as a culture has needed for the last few years. When you have serially hostile instigators like Samantha Allen and just about everyone at Polygon trying harder and harder to start shit in the industry, along with habitual crybabies like Adam Atomic and unbalanced/unmedicated ragequitters like Phil Fish, it makes the gaming industry a very unfriendly place to be.

    These people, along with all who support them, need to find a new hobby.

    • kingdo goodbomber

      “These people, along with all who support them, need to find a new hobby.”

      They aren’t talented enough or good enough or motivated enough to be good at anything. That’s why they have to resort to hijacking and threats. If they had any talent they would make the games they want to play but the best they can come up with is Depression Quest which anyone with a grain of talent could make in a couple of hours.

      • Dbusterplus

        Twine doesn’t even take a grain of talent.

        I’m writing a text-adventure now in ADRIFT, and trust me, using Twine and claiming that whatever hyperlinked horseshit you made is a text-adventure is the ridiculous claim that’s akin to to saying you bought a Ferrari and showed up to the party in riding lawnmower.

    • tetrisdork

      I can confirm that Joystiq so far is pretty good about being neutral. Or, it isn’t what you see on Kotaku and Polygon on a daily basis.

    • Billy

      Kotaku led the way, and from it spawned Polygon, these two are the
      ringleaders of the SJW movement. And the other sites quickly fell in
      line. Rock, Paper Shotgun almost dived into the brainwashing headfirst.
      The Escapist kind of fell in line after a while, and Destructoid’s
      readership has done well fighting it off, kind of reaching an
      understanding and weird balance.

      You wouldn’t be surprised at just how close all the head honchos are to each other when it comes to back-patting.

      That’s all I’ll say.

  • Dbusterplus

    Personally, I’m glad this whole situation unfolded the way it did.

    The attempted takeover of gaming as a culture by totalitarian social engineers has finally been met with a valid resistance.

    By far the most aggressive, hateful, nonsensical monsters I’ve ever dealt with online are SJWs, and they spent years infiltrating the gaming journalism industry by the means of writing clickbait trash that attract the stupid and vocal, of which they are legion.

    Kotaku led the way, and from it spawned Polygon, these two are the ringleaders of the SJW movement. And the other sites quickly fell in line. Rock, Paper Shotgun almost dived into the brainwashing headfirst. The Escapist kind of fell in line after a while, and Destructoid’s readership has done well fighting it off, kind of reaching an understanding and weird balance.

    Joystiq to this point seems like the ones who have done the best job deflecting a huge amount of this nonsense, instead choosing to largely report on just the news, at least mostly of what I’ve seen, as it’s not my main stomping ground.

    Either way, this was the shot in the arm that gaming coverage as a culture has needed for the last few years. When you have serially hostile instigators like Samantha Allen and just about everyone at Polygon trying harder and harder to start shit in the industry, along with habitual crybabies like Adam Atomic and unbalanced/unmedicated ragequitters like Phil Fish, it makes the gaming industry a very unfriendly place to be.

    These people, along with all who support them, need to find a new hobby.

    • kingdo goodbomber

      “These people, along with all who support them, need to find a new hobby.”

      They aren’t talented enough or good enough or motivated enough to be good at anything. That’s why they have to resort to hijacking and threats. If they had any talent they would make the games they want to play but the best they can come up with is Depression Quest which anyone with a grain of talent could make in a couple of hours.

      • Dbusterplus

        Twine doesn’t even take a grain of talent.

        I’m writing a text-adventure now in ADRIFT, and trust me, using Twine and claiming that whatever hyperlinked horseshit you made is a text-adventure is the ridiculous claim that’s akin to to saying you bought a Ferrari and showed up to the party in riding lawnmower.

    • tetrisdork

      I can confirm that Joystiq so far is pretty good about being neutral. Or, it isn’t what you see on Kotaku and Polygon on a daily basis.

    • Billy

      Kotaku led the way, and from it spawned Polygon, these two are the
      ringleaders of the SJW movement. And the other sites quickly fell in
      line. Rock, Paper Shotgun almost dived into the brainwashing headfirst.
      The Escapist kind of fell in line after a while, and Destructoid’s
      readership has done well fighting it off, kind of reaching an
      understanding and weird balance.

      You wouldn’t be surprised at just how close all the head honchos are to each other when it comes to back-patting.

      That’s all I’ll say.

  • Jon Stone

    Wow, the whole comment thread since I started weighing in here has degraded into repeated instances of weirdo conspiracy theorists complaining about a mystical cult of ‘SJWs’ ruining the future of gaming. For obvious reasons, they sound exactly like the conservatives who prophesised that gay marriage would be the downfall of civilisation.

    Here’s a thought: if you witness a particular argument or line of thinking ‘taking over’ an industry – in this case, games journalism – isn’t it far more likely that, one by one, people are being convinced by the worthiness of that cause, rather than some sinister behind-the-scenes brainwashing taking place?

    Poor Derek. His article deserved better than this takeover from fanatical feminist haters.

    • kingdo goodbomber
      • Jon Stone

        I think it’s pretty clear here who has more difficulty getting women to sleep with them …

        • kingdo goodbomber

          says the 120 lb guy who can’t even grow a mustache. I think it’s pretty clear who has never had sex with an actual woman, little man. My d*ck is thicker than your wrist.

          • Jon Stone

            The thing is: I know I’ve had plenty of sex with women. In your heart of hearts, you know it too. So there’s not really much point in debating it, is there?

          • kingdo goodbomber

            are you trying to tell me you were molested? Are are you the molester? Cause any woman over the age 18 would probably feel like a child molester if she were to have sex with your puny little body.

            So, yeah, I’m sorry your aunt touched your junk. Is that why you love SJWs so much? looking for a strong role model like auntie touch and fun?

          • Jon Stone

            Please keep posting, kingdo. I’m thinking of producing your writing as counter-evidence whenever anyone tries to tell me that MRAs are normal, well-adjusted people with legitimate concerns …

          • Kingdo Goodbomber

            than you would be being dishonest because I am in no way affiliated with any “MRA”, but then again, dishonesty and mischaracterization is par for the social justice warrior course.

          • Miglet32

            Why even go there? Don’t antagonize the guy, he’s clearly not going to agree.

            And don’t generalize… many MRA activists are actually working towards several important and valid issues, such as inequality in legal custody and alimony, and even the addition of women into the selective service rosters.

          • Jon Stone

            “… many MRA activists are actually working towards several important and valid issues …”

            WAIT. This is important. Are you sure about this? Because while I’ve always known there are people active on these issues, I understood the MRA movement to be a particular, self-contained thing, comprised of people who like to complain about issues but are largely motivated by a hatred of feminism.

            Can you point me toward someone who identifies as MRA and is actually working positively towards rectifying inequality issues? If such people exist, I need to revise my opinions.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Because while I’ve always known there are people active on these issues, I understood the MRA movement to be a particular, self-contained thing, comprised of people who like to complain about issues but are largely motivated by a hatred of feminism.”

            Wow. So I guess by that logic, feminism is a ‘self-contained thing’ comprised of people who like to complain about issues but are largely motivated by hatred of men?

            “Not all feminists are like that” = not allowed to generalize about feminists, but apparently for everyone else that is ok. LOL

          • Jon Stone

            “So I guess by that logic …”

            I didn’t use logic. I reported my impression. I’ve spent time reading posts by feminists. I’ve spent time (too much time) reading posts by self-identifying MRAs. I find feminists to hold a variety of opinions and to have a variety of worthwhile points to make, many of which helpfully inform my outlook. I find self-identifying MRAs to be batshit insane, to be honest. To say it’s generalising implies that there are exceptions to this rule – I’ve never seen any.

            I have seen and read books like ‘The Second Sexism’ – about the ways social conventions also discriminate against men – but Benatar doesn’t identify as MRA. In fact, he goes to great pains to distance himself from anyone who thinks feminism has gone too far.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “I didn’t use logic.”

            I noticed. The Hasty Generalization fallacy is what you used.

            “I reported my impression. I find feminists to hold a variety of opinions and to have a variety of worthwhile points to make, many of which helpfully inform my outlook. I find self-identifying MRAs to be batshit insane, to be honest.”

            That’s a nice way to put stereotyping with a biased viewpoint, punctuated with an ad hominem. The problem is, you are forming an opinion without actually reviewing the information given. You see MRAs as overreacting, yet you yourself have not lived in their shoes, dealt with unjust laws, or even been falsely accused of sexual assault (which in America, even if one is acquitted, one is still registered as a sexual offender).

            “To say it’s generalising implies that there are exceptions to this rule – I’ve never seen any.”

            I could say the same about feminism. I’ve never seen any exceptions to the whining about minuscule issues and man-hating feminists, so there must not be any exceptions to that rule. No matter what you use to justify it, you are generalizing. Accept it, its part of human nature.

            “I have seen and read books like ‘The Second Sexism’ – about the ways social conventions also discriminate against men – but Benatar doesn’t identify as MRA. In fact, he goes to great pains to distance himself from anyone who thinks feminism has gone too far.”

            Well go him, he gets to play both sides of the fence, but I’ll bet you his book still isn’t a big seller among feminists. Up until recently, it took lots of bringing attention to the problem of male suicide by MRAs and male homelessness (majority of homeless, at least in the US) before feminists admitted there was a problem. Even further, popular and influential feminists and feminists groups tried to call the attention being given to these issues “misogyny” because they weren’t focused on women’s issues.

          • Miglet32

            From what I’ve always understood, when the MRM “broke” onto the scene, it was literally born out of custody equality. Upon looking into it as it’s listed on Wiki, apparently it was more of a counterculture movement to feminism. That said, legitimate issues have grown out of the movement.

            en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men’s_rights_movement

            There are several issues that are certainly ones that have merit (adoption laws, divorces, custody, selective service). Of course there are also a few issues that are a bit wacked (opposition to the criminalization of marital rape, marital strike, etc.).

            Basically like feminism, MRM has its own aspect of extremisms. But like feminism, it’s sort of pointless to right off all aspects of the movement.

            But then like all good things of substance, the MRM has been hijacked to some extent as a means of combating SJW feminism and now we’re at this rock against a hard place of nonsensical name-calling and irrational discourse.

          • Kaili Burns

            Opening your first response with ad hominems is not the best way to defend your side of the argument. Just saying.

    • Livnthedream

      Except there is actual evidence of it, like the Editor and Chief of the Escapist doing just that here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.858347-Zoe-Quinn-and-the-surrounding-controversy?page=31#21285187

      Not to mention the supposed “off limits cause this is personal business” narrative that have been spouted but just last month they crucified Tempkin under similar circumstances.

      • kingdo goodbomber

        that’s not evidence when viewed through the prism of “feminist analysis” unless you are looking for more evidence of P-P-P-P-PATRIARCHY!!!!

      • Jon Stone

        Actual evidence of what? Brainwashing?

        • Livnthedream

          Of reporting without fact checking because “Harassment is a problem”. Showing that any abuse is reported without checking first is absurd and part of the problem.

          • Jon Stone

            All right – I agree that no fact-checking at all is a problem. But a lot of times the abuse is performed publicly.

          • Livnthedream

            No one disagrees that harassment happens. What is often in question though is just how much and of what quality. The issue comes when the statement is made that there should be none, as its an unreasonable metric. There will always be trolls and those who harass, and those people are clearly on both sides of this debate. Attempting to force the narrative as female only, or even female focused isn’t representative.

          • Linda M

            You missed the most important part: by whom. Despite tons of red flags and no evidence of it being organized on 4chan, some people have completely bought into the “4chan did it” story re Phil Fish. The Zoe Quinn tumblr hack was similarly strange… could be false flag, or a double false flag, but whatever it was, it certainly wasn’t straight.

            I mean, supposedly we shouldn’t put much stock into the ex-boyfriend’s detailed breakdown and chat logs, but we should believe a random “confession” on a hacked website? 4chan is the easiest scapegoat there is.

          • Livnthedream

            There isn’t enough information around about any of the hacks to reach any sort of conclusion. Someone claimed that there is an open FBI investigation, lets hope there is and lets hope they can bring whoever did this to justice, not that we are ever likely to find out about it (unless of course it was someone from 4chan, at which point I am sure I will see it on Kotaku, and Polygon and…).

    • Dbusterplus

      These people have actually ruined other people’s careers

      If you don’t believe me, look up the Alistair Pinsoff incident on Destructoid or look up how these people got Josh Olin fired for making a very sensible comment on his personal twitter.

      When they’ve become so influential in the industry that their already-erratic emotional whims can cost people their jobs, it’s a problem. When they’re on their twitters regularly telling people who don’t agree with them to go die in fires, they’re engaging in the very behavior they claim to rail against on a constant basis.

      A major chunk of these people are fierce and unrepentant hypocrites, who regularly make efforts to defame and insult everyone around them while claiming to be marginalized.

      So maybe stop trying to suck up to the author and read between the lines.

      • Jon Stone

        I looked up Alistair Pinsof. It looks like firing him was justified.

        You ask me to ‘read between the lines’. This sounds an awful lot like you’re asking me to ignore the facts, ignore what my eyes see and interpret the evidence through the lens of an aggressive anti-feminist, anti-activist agenda.

        • kingdo goodbomber

          right, if you don’t apologize and offer unqualified support to liars and hypocrites simply because they have a vagina then you’re “anti-feminism”

          If you say so, try putting down the kool aid, little guy.

        • Miglet32

          Robert Flourence being forced out at Eurogamer, however, is evidence that there is a problem regarding the ethics and integrity involved with journalists maintaining a fair and sensible distance from their subject matter, independent of any specific agendas that might be at play.

          • Jon Stone

            Yes, I agree – I can’t find a good explanation for that one.

          • Miglet32

            Most likely because there isn’t one… just like the firing of that one journalist for his honest 6/10 review of Kayne & Lynch, DoritoDewGate, etc. I feel like there is a growing laundry list of known ethical issues and at least some gamers are tired of it.

            I mean, I hate going back to it since I already mentioned it, but that Dragon’s Crown article on Kotaku literally gets a journalist in any traditional form of news media outside of Rush Limbaugh fired for the way it was written.

            I hate to say it, because it took me this long to see it, but it’s not journalism. But I want it to be, because as a consumer-base we should be allowed to demand a news entity that operates with overall integrity. If movies and music can do it for the most part, why are things in gaming so f’d?

        • Dbusterplus

          If you think his firing was justified, then there is no hope for you to see otherwise. I’m not going to try and convince someone whose already got themselves convinced of the hyper-activist agenda.

          Alistair pinsoff outed that person because A: not only was she committing fraud by trying to raise money for what she called a “life saving” surgery, and it turned out to be a sex change, but…

          B: she was also threatening suicide, taking her own life hostage as a means of getting what she wanted.

          Either way, the words are wasted on those who choose support bullying in the name of activism.

          Funny how you didn’t seem to have much to say about Josh Olin.

    • Cheseburger Williams

      I think Derek is right and that feminists deserve much harsh criticism for it intellectual claims and individual members. Also: I think SJWs do operate sort of like a cult. The politics of the fully “inter-sectional” movement are impossible for real people. So a 16 year old goes to tumblr and learns “the one true morality” and then proceeds to alienate all of his or her real life friends.

      Then tumblr becomes their only friend and the only voice they here. Then you need counseling and an intervention to escape.

      • Jon Stone

        Do you have any evidence of that happening to anyone? I know a lot of people from a bunch of scenes who are on board with various social justice movements. I do know some who take it too far and won’t talk about anything else, but the majority are normal people who are conscientious about equal opportunities.

        • Miglet32

          The way that Temkin was actively “thrown to the wolves” by gaming journalists for private matters whereas the same outlets have actively buried discussion on Quinn is a telling double standard.

          I believe that some sites have a narrative they want to tell. I mean, the fact that Kotaku green light-that original Dragon’s Crown article with a title calling the artist a little boy is more than enough proof on it’s own. It’s entirely possible to discuss the merits of current art styles in a game in relation to how some gamers might feel about that without resorting to outright yellow journalism.

          • Jon Stone

            I agree that it’s the tendency of people to think in narratives, and for bias to emerge based on the story you believe is unfolding. This is true of the fans as well as the journalists, however, and that article, problematic as it was, is not on the level of people being targeted for abuse in the form of hundreds of threatening emails, as seems to frequently happen.

          • Miglet32

            I certainly agree that true harassment shouldn’t occur. But that seems to go both ways because apparently you can’t have a rational comment or conversation on the internet without someone calling you a rapist, femnazi, SJW, MRA, or terrorist. The most recent slight for gamers with any sort of opinion on the ZQ thing or gaming journalism seems to be painting them all as SJWs and then in the next breath equating them to ISIS terrorists.

            But at the end of the day, there is no civil discourse, because when even someone steps up and says “hey, maybe it’s ok to ask how female gamers feel about the lack of female devs”, or “why is no one covering what appears to be a massive breach in Kotaku’s official ethical policies by several journalists?”, you’re called a white-night fag or an SJW terrorist. And sadly, what seems to be a large portion of the gaming press, the entity that should be able to maintain some level of neutrality in order to foster civil discourse, has adopted at least some form of narrative bias that prevents that. I mean hell, editors and writers jumping on Twitter with crap like “say it to my face” (while also having financial ties to the people they are defending in absolutism), even in response to some pointless vitriol… just smh. There is very little professionalism left in some of the highest positions in gaming journalism.

            The whole thing is a shit-show to the extent that I half expect the ghosts of long-dead Socrates and Walter Konkite to rise up and purge anyone who can’t make a half-way reasoned argument without applying some label in a dehumanizing manner.

            At this point, I think I’d be ok with that… not srs.

            Semisrs.

          • Dom Corleone

            The problem is that any answer to “Why aren’t there more female devs?” is that women get fewer degrees in computer science.

            Feminists consider the only acceptable answer “misogyny”.

          • Kingdo Goodbomber

            You might enjoy this:

            http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/iq-by-college-major-gender.png

            Notice where “Social work” falls on the graph?

            I’ll explain it to all the social justice workers out there (because Math = Hard + Ewwwww):

            Social Work is almost all women and they have an IQ comparable to Forrest Gump.

          • Miglet32

            That’s asinine… and actually the same logic people used to marginalize the intellectual capacity of blacks and other minorities.

            The IQ exam has proven increasingly fallible in recent decades, so it’s certainly not a useful tool to provide this sort of commentary. Hell, the guy that may have to perform your open hear bypass or diagnose and treat your cancer once day isn’t much better than all those social workers. Why don’t you call them out while you are at it?

          • Miglet32

            I’d like to add that you grossly misrepresent the overall difficulty most social work and inaccurately conflate social work with social justice or activism.

          • Kaili Burns

            The only thing IQ tests are good at showing is how good someone is at taking an IQ test. Someone could mathematically be poor while socially being a genius; however an IQ test doesn’t take such varying things into account and instead tunnels its self on a select few subjects to tack on an arbitrary number to your brain. And since when has an IQ
            of 100 ever been considered bad? It’s straight up average and average people can hold successful careers.

          • Miglet32

            It’s still a valid question and discussion that can be handled without jumping to those sorts of tripe answers.

            The scientific community has actually put a lot of effort into increase the number of female researchers across many fields through all sorts of education and awareness programs. The same could be a possible option for the gaming community, particularly as female gamers grow as a segment of the population.

        • Dom Corleone

          Well, everyone thinks they are unbiased. My priors suggest that you are just not aware of how far gone you are (though it is promising that you recognize the more “cult like” elements further to the left of you).

          Social Justice got the way it is because at some point people who were bad at arguing got away with calling every idea besides theirs misogynist or racist and that effectively scared people into silence. There is no descent in the discussions so people’s positions radicalize as bad rationalizations build up unchallenged.

          • Jon Stone

            “Social Justice got the way it is because …”

            Let me stop you right there. ‘Social justice’ has been going on for centuries. At every stage, activists are accused of being bullies or terrorists – particularly when the wind starts blowing in their favour. Conservatives still think gay marriage only happened because of the ‘gay agenda’ and gay people infiltrating all levels of society and using all sorts of low tactics.

            How do you KNOW one side is bullying the other into silence, and that this is the reason the tide is going their way? Because the anti-feminist ranting types have some considerable form in using all forms of attack at their disposal to try to silence so-called SJWs. How is it that you can maintain, nevertheless, that it’s other people who are scared into silence? Based on the intensity and scale of the threat-tactics used, surely it should be the other way round?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Let me stop you right there. ‘Social justice’ has been going on for centuries.”

            And would have too, if idiots didn’t decide to use “social justice” as an excuse for “do it my way”, but that is what it has come to. People complain about minor inconveniences and treat them akin to real civil rights abuses.

          • Jon Stone

            ‘Minor inconveniences’ – that’s how people used to dismiss serious mental health issues, or physical illnesses like ME. I don’t think men like you and me can ever truly understand what it’s like to grow up in a world where the other sex dominates nearly every major industry, as well as most of the stock mythologies and narratives, and therefore I’m not going to just dismiss representation issues as ‘minor inconveniences’.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “‘Minor inconveniences’ – that’s how people used to dismiss serious mental health issues, or physical illnesses like ME.”

            That sir, is a strawman argument. I never said that. By minor inconveniences, I mean people who talk about social justice while whining that their favorite game has no gender choices for the protagonist. That shouldn’t be a big deal. This is like claiming that Picasso didn’t paint enough nude men, or that the statue of david is ‘sexist’, because it doesn’t include Bathsheba.

            “I don’t think men like you and me can ever truly understand what it’s like to grow up in a world where the other sex dominates nearly every major industry, as well as most of the stock mythologies and narratives, and therefore I’m not going to just dismiss representation issues as ‘minor inconveniences’.”

            I don’t know what world you claim to live in, but women have always been respected above men, at least since the middle ages, when it became customary for men to KNEEL when proposing to a woman, which was something reserved for ones betters (royalty, etc) – definitely not equals thats to be sure, before that point. There are tons of narratives about princesses and how princes should treat princesses. Greek mythology, as with most mythologies have narratives about women with immense power. (Hera being one example – almost nobody wanted to cross her). I’m going to pretend you didn’t just ignore the greater half of western history to believe your biased viewpoint, because I could seriously go on further to laws that have been protecting women above men for the last century, and before that, but that is a long discussion.

        • Linda M

          For evidence: look at the protests that have been happening at the University of Toronto. A bunch of “progressive” students get together and yell “Fuck [name of speaker]” alternating with “No hate speech on campus”.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0

          These are not isolated incidents, not at this campus and not in the country. These people will go into auditoria to yell and scream, pull fire alarms, and do anything but listen. What would you call that?

          • Jon Stone

            This isn’t evidence of cultishness or people learning ‘the one true morality’. This is just what protestors do when they protest against something. Personally, I don’t like or go on protests because I find people can get too wrapped up in their own righteousness, but I understand why it comes to this when enough people strongly oppose an event.

    • Nessuno

      I get where you´re coming from, but honestly I feel like there is an important grain of truth amidst all of the harsh criticism SJWs get. I have friends who fight for social justice causes and have no qualms with them. My issue is with people like Anita Sarkeesian, Emma Watson, Zoe Quinn and others that make exaggerated or outright dishonest claims and respond to any criticism by saying that it is because they are women.

      Bigots exists and are an issue, but when people like this cry wolf all the time it makes it harder for actual victims and legitimate criticisms of misogyny to be believed in the future.

  • Jon Stone

    Wow, the whole comment thread since I started weighing in here has degraded into repeated instances of weirdo conspiracy theorists complaining about a mystical cult of ‘SJWs’ ruining the future of gaming. For obvious reasons, they sound exactly like the conservatives who prophesised that gay marriage would be the downfall of civilisation.

    Here’s a thought: if you witness a particular argument or line of thinking ‘taking over’ an industry – in this case, games journalism – isn’t it far more likely that, one by one, people are being convinced by the worthiness of that cause, rather than some sinister behind-the-scenes brainwashing taking place?

    Poor Derek. His article deserved better than this takeover from fanatical feminist haters.

    • kingdo goodbomber
      • Jon Stone

        I think it’s pretty clear here who has more difficulty getting women to sleep with them …

        • kingdo goodbomber

          says the 120 lb guy who can’t even grow a mustache. I think it’s pretty clear who has never had sex with an actual woman, little man. My d*ck is thicker than your wrist.

          • Jon Stone

            The thing is: I know I’ve had plenty of sex with women. In your heart of hearts, you know it too. So there’s not really much point in debating it, is there?

          • kingdo goodbomber

            are you trying to tell me you were molested? Are are you the molester? Cause any woman over the age 18 would probably feel like a child molester if she were to have sex with your puny little body.

            So, yeah, I’m sorry your aunt touched your junk. Is that why you love SJWs so much? looking for a strong role model like auntie touch and fun?

          • Jon Stone

            Please keep posting, kingdo. I’m thinking of producing your writing as counter-evidence whenever anyone tries to tell me that MRAs are normal, well-adjusted people with legitimate concerns …

          • Kingdo Goodbomber

            than you would be being dishonest because I am in no way affiliated with any “MRA”, but then again, dishonesty and mischaracterization is par for the social justice warrior course.

          • Miglet32

            Why even go there? Don’t antagonize the guy, he’s clearly not going to agree.

            And don’t generalize… many MRA activists are actually working towards several important and valid issues, such as inequality in legal custody and alimony, and even the addition of women into the selective service rosters.

          • Jon Stone

            “… many MRA activists are actually working towards several important and valid issues …”

            WAIT. This is important. Are you sure about this? Because while I’ve always known there are people active on these issues, I understood the MRA movement to be a particular, self-contained thing, comprised of people who like to complain about issues but are largely motivated by a hatred of feminism.

            Can you point me toward someone who identifies as MRA and is actually working positively towards rectifying inequality issues? If such people exist, I need to revise my opinions.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Because while I’ve always known there are people active on these issues, I understood the MRA movement to be a particular, self-contained thing, comprised of people who like to complain about issues but are largely motivated by a hatred of feminism.”

            Wow. So I guess by that logic, feminism is a ‘self-contained thing’ comprised of people who like to complain about issues but are largely motivated by hatred of men?

            “Not all feminists are like that” = not allowed to generalize about feminists, but apparently for everyone else that is ok. LOL

          • Jon Stone

            “So I guess by that logic …”

            I didn’t use logic. I reported my impression. I’ve spent time reading posts by feminists. I’ve spent time (too much time) reading posts by self-identifying MRAs. I find feminists to hold a variety of opinions and to have a variety of worthwhile points to make, many of which helpfully inform my outlook. I find self-identifying MRAs to be batshit insane, to be honest. To say it’s generalising implies that there are exceptions to this rule – I’ve never seen any.

            I have seen and read books like ‘The Second Sexism’ – about the ways social conventions also discriminate against men – but Benatar doesn’t identify as MRA. In fact, he goes to great pains to distance himself from anyone who thinks feminism has gone too far.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “I didn’t use logic.”

            I noticed. The Hasty Generalization fallacy is what you used.

            “I reported my impression. I find feminists to hold a variety of opinions and to have a variety of worthwhile points to make, many of which helpfully inform my outlook. I find self-identifying MRAs to be batshit insane, to be honest.”

            That’s a nice way to put stereotyping with a biased viewpoint, punctuated with an ad hominem. The problem is, you are forming an opinion without actually reviewing the information given. You see MRAs as overreacting, yet you yourself have not lived in their shoes, dealt with unjust laws, or even been falsely accused of sexual assault (which in America, even if one is acquitted, one is still registered as a sexual offender).

            “To say it’s generalising implies that there are exceptions to this rule – I’ve never seen any.”

            I could say the same about feminism. I’ve never seen any exceptions to the whining about minuscule issues and man-hating feminists, so there must not be any exceptions to that rule. No matter what you use to justify it, you are generalizing. Accept it, its part of human nature.

            “I have seen and read books like ‘The Second Sexism’ – about the ways social conventions also discriminate against men – but Benatar doesn’t identify as MRA. In fact, he goes to great pains to distance himself from anyone who thinks feminism has gone too far.”

            Well go him, he gets to play both sides of the fence, but I’ll bet you his book still isn’t a big seller among feminists. Up until recently, it took lots of bringing attention to the problem of male suicide by MRAs and male homelessness (majority of homeless, at least in the US) before feminists admitted there was a problem. Even further, popular and influential feminists and feminists groups tried to call the attention being given to these issues “misogyny” because they weren’t focused on women’s issues.

          • Miglet32

            From what I’ve always understood, when the MRM “broke” onto the scene, it was literally born out of custody equality. Upon looking into it as it’s listed on Wiki, apparently it was more of a counterculture movement to feminism. That said, legitimate issues have grown out of the movement.

            en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men’s_rights_movement

            There are several issues that are certainly ones that have merit (adoption laws, divorces, custody, selective service). Of course there are also a few issues that are a bit wacked (opposition to the criminalization of marital rape, marital strike, etc.).

            Basically like feminism, MRM has its own aspect of extremisms. But like feminism, it’s sort of pointless to right off all aspects of the movement.

            But then like all good things of substance, the MRM has been hijacked to some extent as a means of combating SJW feminism and now we’re at this rock against a hard place of nonsensical name-calling and irrational discourse.

          • Kaili Burns

            Opening your first response with ad hominems is not the best way to defend your side of the argument. Just saying.

    • Livnthedream

      Except there is actual evidence of it, like the Editor and Chief of the Escapist doing just that here: http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.858347-Zoe-Quinn-and-the-surrounding-controversy?page=31#21285187

      Not to mention the supposed “off limits cause this is personal business” narrative that have been spouted but just last month they crucified Tempkin under similar circumstances.

      • kingdo goodbomber

        that’s not evidence when viewed through the prism of “feminist analysis” unless you are looking for more evidence of P-P-P-P-PATRIARCHY!!!!

      • Jon Stone

        Actual evidence of what? Brainwashing?

        • Livnthedream

          Of reporting without fact checking because “Harassment is a problem”. Showing that any abuse is reported without checking first is absurd and part of the problem.

          • Jon Stone

            All right – I agree that no fact-checking at all is a problem. But a lot of times the abuse is performed publicly.

          • Livnthedream

            No one disagrees that harassment happens. What is often in question though is just how much and of what quality. The issue comes when the statement is made that there should be none, as its an unreasonable metric. There will always be trolls and those who harass, and those people are clearly on both sides of this debate. Attempting to force the narrative as female only, or even female focused isn’t representative.

          • Linda M

            You missed the most important part: by whom. Despite tons of red flags and no evidence of it being organized on 4chan, some people have completely bought into the “4chan did it” story re Phil Fish. The Zoe Quinn tumblr hack was similarly strange… could be false flag, or a double false flag, but whatever it was, it certainly wasn’t straight.

            I mean, supposedly we shouldn’t put much stock into the ex-boyfriend’s detailed breakdown and chat logs, but we should believe a random “confession” on a hacked website? 4chan is the easiest scapegoat there is.

          • Livnthedream

            There isn’t enough information around about any of the hacks to reach any sort of conclusion. Someone claimed that there is an open FBI investigation, lets hope there is and lets hope they can bring whoever did this to justice, not that we are ever likely to find out about it (unless of course it was someone from 4chan, at which point I am sure I will see it on Kotaku, and Polygon and…).

    • Dbusterplus

      These people have actually ruined other people’s careers

      If you don’t believe me, look up the Alistair Pinsoff incident on Destructoid or look up how these people got Josh Olin fired for making a very sensible comment on his personal twitter.

      When they’ve become so influential in the industry that their already-erratic emotional whims can cost people their jobs, it’s a problem. When they’re on their twitters regularly telling people who don’t agree with them to go die in fires, they’re engaging in the very behavior they claim to rail against on a constant basis.

      A major chunk of these people are fierce and unrepentant hypocrites, who regularly make efforts to defame and insult everyone around them while claiming to be marginalized.

      So maybe stop trying to suck up to the author and read between the lines.

      • Jon Stone

        I looked up Alistair Pinsof. It looks like firing him was justified.

        You ask me to ‘read between the lines’. This sounds an awful lot like you’re asking me to ignore the facts, ignore what my eyes see and interpret the evidence through the lens of an aggressive anti-feminist, anti-activist agenda.

        • kingdo goodbomber

          right, if you don’t apologize and offer unqualified support to liars and hypocrites simply because they have a vagina then you’re “anti-feminism”

          If you say so, try putting down the kool aid, little guy.

          • Miglet32

            This is not reasonable, logical discourse.

        • Miglet32

          Robert Flourence being forced out at Eurogamer, however, is evidence that there is a problem regarding the ethics and integrity involved with journalists maintaining a fair and sensible distance from their subject matter, independent of any specific agendas that might be at play.

          • Jon Stone

            Yes, I agree – I can’t find a good explanation for that one.

          • Miglet32

            Most likely because there isn’t one… just like the firing of that one journalist for his honest 6/10 review of Kayne & Lynch, DoritoDewGate, etc. I feel like there is a growing laundry list of known ethical issues and at least some gamers are tired of it.

            I mean, I hate going back to it since I already mentioned it, but that Dragon’s Crown article on Kotaku literally gets a journalist in any traditional form of news media outside of Rush Limbaugh fired for the way it was written.

            I hate to say it, because it took me this long to see it, but it’s not journalism. But I want it to be, because as a consumer-base we should be allowed to demand a news entity that operates with overall integrity. If movies and music can do it for the most part, why are things in gaming so f’d?

        • Dbusterplus

          If you think his firing was justified, then there is no hope for you to see otherwise. I’m not going to try and convince someone whose already got themselves convinced of the hyper-activist agenda.

          Alistair pinsoff outed that person because A: not only was she committing fraud by trying to raise money for what she called a “life saving” surgery, and it turned out to be a sex change, but…

          B: she was also threatening suicide, taking her own life hostage as a means of getting what she wanted.

          Either way, the words are wasted on those who choose support bullying in the name of activism.

          Funny how you didn’t seem to have much to say about Josh Olin.

    • Cheseburger Williams

      I think Derek is right and that feminists deserve much harsh criticism for it intellectual claims and individual members. Also: I think SJWs do operate sort of like a cult. The politics of the fully “inter-sectional” movement are impossible for real people. So a 16 year old goes to tumblr and learns “the one true morality” and then proceeds to alienate all of his or her real life friends.

      Then tumblr becomes their only friend and the only voice they here. Then you need counseling and an intervention to escape.

      • Jon Stone

        Do you have any evidence of that happening to anyone? I know a lot of people from a bunch of scenes who are on board with various social justice movements. I do know some who take it too far and won’t talk about anything else, but the majority are normal people who are conscientious about equal opportunities.

        • Miglet32

          The way that Temkin was actively “thrown to the wolves” by gaming journalists for private matters whereas the same outlets have actively buried discussion on Quinn is a telling double standard.

          I believe that some sites have a narrative they want to tell. I mean, the fact that Kotaku green light-that original Dragon’s Crown article with a title calling the artist a little boy is more than enough proof on it’s own. It’s entirely possible to discuss the merits of current art styles in a game in relation to how some gamers might feel about that without resorting to outright yellow journalism.

          • Jon Stone

            I agree that it’s the tendency of people to think in narratives, and for bias to emerge based on the story you believe is unfolding. This is true of the fans as well as the journalists, however, and that article, problematic as it was, is not on the level of people being targeted for abuse in the form of hundreds of threatening emails, as seems to frequently happen.

          • Miglet32

            I certainly agree that true harassment shouldn’t occur. But that seems to go both ways because apparently you can’t have a rational comment or conversation on the internet without someone calling you a rapist, femnazi, SJW, MRA, or terrorist. The most recent slight for gamers with any sort of opinion on the ZQ thing or gaming journalism seems to be painting them all as SJWs and then in the next breath equating them to ISIS terrorists.

            But at the end of the day, there is no civil discourse, because when even someone steps up and says “hey, maybe it’s ok to ask how female gamers feel about the lack of female devs”, or “why is no one covering what appears to be a massive breach in Kotaku’s official ethical policies by several journalists?”, you’re called a white-night fag or an SJW terrorist. And sadly, what seems to be a large portion of the gaming press, the entity that should be able to maintain some level of neutrality in order to foster civil discourse, has adopted at least some form of narrative bias that prevents that. I mean hell, editors and writers jumping on Twitter with crap like “say it to my face” (while also having financial ties to the people they are defending in absolutism), even in response to some pointless vitriol… just smh. There is very little professionalism left in some of the highest positions in gaming journalism.

            The whole thing is a shit-show to the extent that I half expect the ghosts of long-dead Socrates and Walter Konkite to rise up and purge anyone who can’t make a half-way reasoned argument without applying some label in a dehumanizing manner.

            At this point, I think I’d be ok with that… not srs.

            Semisrs.

          • Dom Corleone

            The problem is that any answer to “Why aren’t there more female devs?” is that women get fewer degrees in computer science.

            Feminists consider the only acceptable answer “misogyny”.

          • Kingdo Goodbomber

            You might enjoy this:

            http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/iq-by-college-major-gender.png

            Notice where “Social work” falls on the graph?

            I’ll explain it to all the social justice workers out there (because Math = Hard + Ewwwww):

            Social Work is almost all women and they have an IQ comparable to Forrest Gump.

          • Miglet32

            That’s asinine… and actually the same logic people used to marginalize the intellectual capacity of blacks and other minorities.

            The IQ exam has proven increasingly fallible in recent decades, so it’s certainly not a useful tool to provide this sort of commentary. Hell, the guy that may have to perform your open hear bypass or diagnose and treat your cancer once day isn’t much better than all those social workers. Why don’t you call them out while you are at it?

          • Miglet32

            I’d like to add that you grossly misrepresent the overall difficulty most social work and inaccurately conflate social work with social justice or activism.

          • Kaili Burns

            The only thing IQ tests are good at showing is how good someone is at taking an IQ test. Someone could mathematically be poor while socially being a genius; however an IQ test doesn’t take such varying things into account and instead tunnels its self on a select few subjects to tack on an arbitrary number to your brain. And since when has an IQ
            of 100 ever been considered bad? It’s straight up average and average people can hold successful careers.

          • Miglet32

            It’s still a valid question and discussion that can be handled without jumping to those sorts of tripe answers.

            The scientific community has actually put a lot of effort into increase the number of female researchers across many fields through all sorts of education and awareness programs. The same could be a possible option for the gaming community, particularly as female gamers grow as a segment of the population.

        • Dom Corleone

          Well, everyone thinks they are unbiased. My priors suggest that you are just not aware of how far gone you are (though it is promising that you recognize the more “cult like” elements further to the left of you).

          Social Justice got the way it is because at some point people who were bad at arguing got away with calling every idea besides theirs misogynist or racist and that effectively scared people into silence. There is no descent in the discussions so people’s positions radicalize as bad rationalizations build up unchallenged.

          • Jon Stone

            “Social Justice got the way it is because …”

            Let me stop you right there. ‘Social justice’ has been going on for centuries. At every stage, activists are accused of being bullies or terrorists – particularly when the wind starts blowing in their favour. Conservatives still think gay marriage only happened because of the ‘gay agenda’ and gay people infiltrating all levels of society and using all sorts of low tactics.

            How do you KNOW one side is bullying the other into silence, and that this is the reason the tide is going their way? Because the anti-feminist ranting types have some considerable form in using all forms of attack at their disposal to try to silence so-called SJWs. How is it that you can maintain, nevertheless, that it’s other people who are scared into silence? Based on the intensity and scale of the threat-tactics used, surely it should be the other way round?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Let me stop you right there. ‘Social justice’ has been going on for centuries.”

            And would have too, if idiots didn’t decide to use “social justice” as an excuse for “do it my way”, but that is what it has come to. People complain about minor inconveniences and treat them akin to real civil rights abuses.

          • Jon Stone

            ‘Minor inconveniences’ – that’s how people used to dismiss serious mental health issues, or physical illnesses like ME. I don’t think men like you and me can ever truly understand what it’s like to grow up in a world where the other sex dominates nearly every major industry, as well as most of the stock mythologies and narratives, and therefore I’m not going to just dismiss representation issues as ‘minor inconveniences’.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “‘Minor inconveniences’ – that’s how people used to dismiss serious mental health issues, or physical illnesses like ME.”

            That sir, is a strawman argument. I never said that. By minor inconveniences, I mean people who talk about social justice while whining that their favorite game has no gender choices for the protagonist. That shouldn’t be a big deal. This is like claiming that Picasso didn’t paint enough nude men, or that the statue of david is ‘sexist’, because it doesn’t include Bathsheba.

            “I don’t think men like you and me can ever truly understand what it’s like to grow up in a world where the other sex dominates nearly every major industry, as well as most of the stock mythologies and narratives, and therefore I’m not going to just dismiss representation issues as ‘minor inconveniences’.”

            I don’t know what world you claim to live in, but women have always been respected above men, at least since the middle ages, when it became customary for men to KNEEL when proposing to a woman, which was something reserved for ones betters (royalty, etc) – definitely not equals thats to be sure, before that point. There are tons of narratives about princesses and how princes should treat princesses. Greek mythology, as with most mythologies have narratives about women with immense power. (Hera being one example – almost nobody wanted to cross her). I’m going to pretend you didn’t just ignore the greater half of western history to believe your biased viewpoint, because I could seriously go on further to laws that have been protecting women above men for the last century, and before that, but that is a long discussion.

        • Linda M

          For evidence: look at the protests that have been happening at the University of Toronto. A bunch of “progressive” students get together and yell “Fuck [name of speaker]” alternating with “No hate speech on campus”.

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0

          These are not isolated incidents, not at this campus and not in the country. These people will go into auditoria to yell and scream, pull fire alarms, and do anything but listen. What would you call that?

          • Jon Stone

            This isn’t evidence of cultishness or people learning ‘the one true morality’. This is just what protestors do when they protest against something. Personally, I don’t like or go on protests because I find people can get too wrapped up in their own righteousness, but I understand why it comes to this when enough people strongly oppose an event.

    • Nessuno

      I get where you´re coming from, but honestly I feel like there is an important grain of truth amidst all of the harsh criticism SJWs get. I have friends who fight for social justice causes and have no qualms with them. My issue is with people like Anita Sarkeesian, Emma Watson, Zoe Quinn and others that make exaggerated or outright dishonest claims and respond to any criticism by saying that it is because they are women.

      Bigots exists and are an issue, but when people like this cry wolf all the time it makes it harder for actual victims and legitimate criticisms of misogyny to be believed in the future.

  • BabaYaga

    wow, all i say is emo and nobody realy cares about my feelings i share with the fraudsters, eh i meant lady developers. I am so sensitive about every aspect of opression in gaming. Everything sucks, where is my knife. My depression realy kills me and i take you all with me. Everything is bad, you are bad, i am bad. We are all just bad. Earth is bad, sky is very bad. Games are BAD. BAD BAD BAD. I dont want to have fun. BAD! My name is bad man. Emo bad man!

    • Livnthedream

      You aren’t helping. All you are doing is muddying the waters.

  • BabaYaga

    wow, all i say is emo and nobody realy cares about my feelings i share with the fraudsters, eh i meant lady developers. I am so sensitive about every aspect of opression in gaming. Everything sucks, where is my knife. My depression realy kills me and i take you all with me. Everything is bad, you are bad, i am bad. We are all just bad. Earth is bad, sky is very bad. Games are BAD. BAD BAD BAD. I dont want to have fun. BAD! My name is bad man. Emo bad man!

    • Livnthedream

      You aren’t helping. All you are doing is muddying the waters.

  • kingdo goodbomber

    Let the little guy who looks like he weighs 100 lbs and is suffering from Marfan Syndrome tell you about the ladies. He’s the expert, lol.

  • kingdo goodbomber

    Let the little guy who looks like he weighs 100 lbs and is suffering from Marfan Syndrome tell you about the ladies. He’s the expert, lol.

  • Magnus Opum

    It has come to the point where discussion is no longer an option and action must be taken by those that love their video game hobbies if they wish to make a stand.
    Those that support Zoe Quinn will not acknowledge that her behavior has
    been disgusting, she is just a victim of the big bad gamers. Without
    that acknowledgment we can not progress further in the discussion.

    http://loltaku.tumblr.com/post/95709211354/if-you-want-a-version-that-can-be-easily-shared

    If there is one truth in this age of civilization this is one of them “Money makes the world go ’round”. Hit them where it will hurt these dishonest charlatans the most. Hit them in the wallet.

  • Magnus Opum

    It has come to the point where discussion is no longer an option and action must be taken by those that love their video game hobbies if they wish to make a stand.
    Those that support Zoe Quinn will not acknowledge that her behavior has
    been disgusting, she is just a victim of the big bad gamers. Without
    that acknowledgment we can not progress further in the discussion.

    http://loltaku.tumblr.com/post/95709211354/if-you-want-a-version-that-can-be-easily-shared

    If there is one truth in this age of civilization this is one of them “Money makes the world go ’round”. Hit them where it will hurt these dishonest charlatans the most. Hit them in the wallet.

  • Evidence Please

    if you really think of feminist frequency as extremist, they you’re part of the problem

    • Livnthedream

      Yes, because a non gamer going out of her way to misrepresent games to fit the goal post moving narrative that she has isn’t extreme?

    • BabaYaga

      that BS is not even related to gaming so please… the whole person is a fraud. All that stuff is a fraud. No games, no devs all just a fraud. And because you know that you yell and yell and do everything to NOT actually talk about gaming.

    • Miglet32

      Possibly not extreme, but I find portions of her videos to be intellectually dishonest at times. She seems to bend has bent information related to gameplay, story, and character design to fit her specific narrative. She’s also been caught using other people’s “Let’s Play” material, as well as outright stolen people’s artwork for her movies. That creates, in me, the suspicion that she’s not actually playing these games, which means that she might not have actually used her KS funds to purchase equipment and games to play these games, like she said she would.

      • Kingdo Goodbomber

        don’t forget the video of her giving a presentation in college where she denigrates video games and claims she isn’t a gamer and adopts an aloof too-cool-for-school attitude towards them… until she realized her puppet master Johnathon had big plans for her that’s when she started pretending to be a “lifelong gamer”

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afgtd8ZsXzI

        What a gamer!

        • Miglet32

          Tbh, I think that a lot of SJWs/anti-SJWs, they’re merely false activists more interested in self-martyrdom than social equality or change.

          To that point true and effective activists (and humanists such as MLK Jr, Ghandi, etc.) do more than simply point out perceived wrongs, and they rarely actively chastise and antagonize opposing parties. They identify their positions with evidence and reason and use open discourse and dialog to win hearts and minds.

          • Kingdo Goodbomber

            they are self-aggrandizing hucksters on the lookout for paid speaking opportunities. Before SJW Anita started pretending to be a gamer she was doing fake video testimonials for pyramid schemes. That shows you what kind of integrity (or lack thereof) and ethics we are dealing with here.

      • Kingdo Goodbomber

        “I’m not a fan of video games. I actually had to learn a lot about video games in the process of making this.”
        -SJW Anita (then)

        “This is a photo of me, at age ten playing Super Mario World on the Super Nintendo. So I’ve been playing games for quite a while.”
        -SJW Anita (now)

        Can someone say… cynical opportunist and hypocrite?

        • Laura Truxillo

          I played lots of video games at age 10, including Super Mario World, but I wouldn’t call myself a fan of video games, and if I wanted to discuss them in depth, I’d have to learn a lot.

          Honestly, I don’t agree with everything, or even a lot of, the things Anita says, but I do think the criticism against her is kind of out of proportion (and sometimes, yeah, threatening and sexist as hell. I mean, you can disagree with someone’s assessment–even if it’s talking about ideologies you don’t agree with–without resorting to gendered insults, which just obscures the whole conversation).

          • It’s fucked up that she’s being threatened and harassed. However, I understand how it could escalate to that point. From what I’ve seen, the slightest criticisms are met with fanatic level SJW outrage, effectively stifling comversations about the very real problems with the FF videos. Given this constant stonewalling it’s pretty easy to see how people with low self control could be driven to the point of rage where they’d stupidly threaten and harass her. There’s douchebags on both sides but if discussions were actually allowed to take place I believe she’d get significantly less hate.

          • Laura Truxillo

            In theory, I’d really love to believe that. But I’ve just seen it happen too many times in the geek-world. Women get rape threats and death threats for almost any feminist opinion publicly expressed. Remember the Teen Titans cover awhile back? It could be a chicken-or-the-egg thing, but I think the *reason* why fanatic SJW rage becomes such a kneejerk reaction is that for the longest time there *wasn’t* much of a voice–gender-related mockery, followed by threats have always (like, pre-internet, pre-television) been been used by certain men to keep women from bucking a status quo that they personally enjoy. (Look at the reaction to women’s suffrage, and all the cartoons of the day that make the reaction about them being ugly or slutty or unpleaseably hysterical for wanting something as unreasonable as voting rights.) So there’s a certain history to that, and to women having to shout to be heard.

            I’m tired of having to show “understanding” to people who threaten women with rape or physical harm just because they don’t like what she’s saying. Do I understand *why* they do it? Yeah. I also understand *why* the Confederate soldiers fought or *why* domestic violence happens. Hell, when I was a kid, I understood why my sibling would hit me if I annoyed them. I understand what these people say to justify their actions to themselves. I just don’t get why that understanding matters. Because at the end of the day, it sounds like, “Well, if you weren’t being so angry and saying so many mean things, maybe people wouldn’t post your personal information or threaten to violate you sexually.”

            Do the SJW make problems? Yeah, sometimes, not even gonna deny it. I see some seriously unreasonable stuff. But the problem is that the concept of “SJW” is now just one more people throw in to avoid having a discussion. Any critique of how media acts towards women or minorities is jumped on as SJW, because throwing out words like “SJW” and “White Knight” work to shame more reasonable people into not participating, while stirring up the problem element on both sides into a frenzy.

            I dunno. I just know that AS got rape and death threats for daring to do a video series about women in video games. I don’t even like FF very much or agree with a lot of the things she says. But I also know gendered insults and threats are the go-to for a lot of guys, with or without SJW coming in to shout them down. And we don’t really need to “understand” why they do it, any more than I needed to understand that making a dumb joke when my sibling was in a Mood would result in me getting hit, because at the end of the day the answer isn’t “don’t do the thing that Makes Them Do That.” It’s “Make Doing That Unacceptable and Enforce Consequences.”

          • Brian Crocker

            A-fucking-men.

    • TuCool

      When 4chan donated to the game jam that Zoe tried to ruin, a game jam designed to help put female ideas in video games, Feminist Frequency criticized the game jam for taking money from 4chan,or as Anita called it, “the cathedral of misogyny.”

      So nevermind 4chan creating a female character and funding a game to bring women into gaming, probably more than Feminist Frequency has ever done to help, Fem Frequency would rather be mad that it came from 4chan.

      So yeah, they are part of the problem. Feminist Frequency exists to crusade against video games, not to help women in video games.

      • Kingdo Goodbomber

        tried to ruin? No, she done ruined it because she was jealous/threatened.

        You see, she is a SJW so logical, reasoned behavior doesn’t apply. It doesn’t have to, their feminists!

      • sd4f

        I think you hit the nail on the head. 4chan rose to the situation and actually have done something productive to make a point, meanwhile, FemFreq still condemn and want to ruin it. I guess it was obvious, since Quinn wanted it destroyed in the first place.

      • FuryOfFirestorm

        Anita’s just mad that she didn’t get a cut of that sweet, sweet cash.

        • Brian Crocker

          She got plenty of money. Every hater that views her videos, every guy like Thunderd0uche and Amazing Assholiest that watches her videos to do “research”, gives her money via monetization. Plus she got more than enough money via Kickstarter to make making the videos a decently paying job.

          • Ian

            Plus steal gameplayes,artwork and make copy paste to tropestv and Wikipedia.

            This make making the vídeos a decently paying job.

          • Brian Crocker

            She doesn’t “steal” gameplays. Go check out the term “fair use” it applies. Lets Plays are in a grey legal area in terms of copyright. I believe, like TB, LP are transformative, and thus legally fall under “fair use”. Nothing happens with the game if noone plays it, it sits there. BUT, that doesn’t mean the LPer owns copyright on the footage of them playing the game. Because almost none of the transformative aspect of it – the commentary and interaction – is in the footage Anita is showing. It’s just the game being played. If she used footage that had imbedded facecam, that might be an issue.
            But again, what she is doing is also “transformative”.
            Quote: The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author’s observations;”
            Both of these apply, both in terms of use of artwork, and in use of LP footage.

      • Brian Crocker

        “FF exists to crusdade against video games” – wait what? FF existed and created tons of videos before the recent video game series. And her series isn’t even AGAINST video games. She is merely pointing out the very real problem the industry has with representation of females in games. She is not calling for video games to be banned, cancelled or taken off the shelves. Merely pointing out the problems, explaining why they are problems, in an effort to hopefully improve the portrayal of females in the future. Period. End of story.

    • Nessuno

      Extremist? Maybe not. That is, if many of her claims weren´t outright misrepresentations of the games she is supposedly analyzing. See her analysis of Hitman.

  • Evidence Please

    if you really think of feminist frequency as extremist, they you’re part of the problem

    • Livnthedream

      Yes, because a non gamer going out of her way to misrepresent games to fit the goal post moving narrative that she has isn’t extreme?

    • BabaYaga

      that BS is not even related to gaming so please… the whole person is a fraud. All that stuff is a fraud. No games, no devs all just a fraud. And because you know that you yell and yell and do everything to NOT actually talk about gaming.

    • Miglet32

      Possibly not extreme, but I find portions of her videos to be intellectually dishonest at times. She seems to bend has bent information related to gameplay, story, and character design to fit her specific narrative. She’s also been caught using other people’s “Let’s Play” material, as well as outright stolen people’s artwork for her movies. That creates, in me, the suspicion that she’s not actually playing these games, which means that she might not have actually used her KS funds to purchase equipment and games to play these games, like she said she would.

      • Kingdo Goodbomber

        don’t forget the video of her giving a presentation in college where she denigrates video games and claims she isn’t a gamer and adopts an aloof too-cool-for-school attitude towards them… until she realized her puppet master Johnathon had big plans for her that’s when she started pretending to be a “lifelong gamer”

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afgtd8ZsXzI

        What a gamer!

        • Miglet32

          Tbh, I think that a lot of SJWs/anti-SJWs, they’re merely false activists more interested in self-martyrdom than social equality or change.

          To that point true and effective activists (and humanists such as MLK Jr, Ghandi, etc.) do more than simply point out perceived wrongs, and they rarely actively chastise and antagonize opposing parties. They identify their positions with evidence and reason and use open discourse and dialog to win hearts and minds.

          • Kingdo Goodbomber

            they are self-aggrandizing hucksters on the lookout for paid speaking opportunities. Before SJW Anita started pretending to be a gamer she was doing fake video testimonials for pyramid schemes. That shows you what kind of integrity (or lack thereof) and ethics we are dealing with here.

      • Kingdo Goodbomber

        “I’m not a fan of video games. I actually had to learn a lot about video games in the process of making this.”
        -SJW Anita (then)

        “This is a photo of me, at age ten playing Super Mario World on the Super Nintendo. So I’ve been playing games for quite a while.”
        -SJW Anita (now)

        Can someone say… cynical opportunist and hypocrite?

        • Laura Truxillo

          I played lots of video games at age 10, including Super Mario World, but I wouldn’t call myself a fan of video games, and if I wanted to discuss them in depth, I’d have to learn a lot.

          Honestly, I don’t agree with everything, or even a lot of, the things Anita says, but I do think the criticism against her is kind of out of proportion (and sometimes, yeah, threatening and sexist as hell. I mean, you can disagree with someone’s assessment–even if it’s talking about ideologies you don’t agree with–without resorting to gendered insults, which just obscures the whole conversation).

          • It’s fucked up that she’s being threatened and harassed. However, I understand how it could escalate to that point. From what I’ve seen, the slightest criticisms are met with fanatic level SJW outrage, effectively stifling comversations about the very real problems with the FF videos. Given this constant stonewalling it’s pretty easy to see how people with low self control could be driven to the point of rage where they’d stupidly threaten and harass her. There’s douchebags on both sides but if discussions were actually allowed to take place I believe she’d get significantly less hate.

          • Laura Truxillo

            In theory, I’d really love to believe that. But I’ve just seen it happen too many times in the geek-world. Women get rape threats and death threats for almost any feminist opinion publicly expressed. Remember the Teen Titans cover awhile back? It could be a chicken-or-the-egg thing, but I think the *reason* why fanatic SJW rage becomes such a kneejerk reaction is that for the longest time there *wasn’t* much of a voice–gender-related mockery, followed by threats have always (like, pre-internet, pre-television) been been used by certain men to keep women from bucking a status quo that they personally enjoy. (Look at the reaction to women’s suffrage, and all the cartoons of the day that make the reaction about them being ugly or slutty or unpleaseably hysterical for wanting something as unreasonable as voting rights.) So there’s a certain history to that, and to women having to shout to be heard.

            I’m tired of having to show “understanding” to people who threaten women with rape or physical harm just because they don’t like what she’s saying. Do I understand *why* they do it? Yeah. I also understand *why* the Confederate soldiers fought or *why* domestic violence happens. Hell, when I was a kid, I understood why my sibling would hit me if I annoyed them. I understand what these people say to justify their actions to themselves. I just don’t get why that understanding matters. Because at the end of the day, it sounds like, “Well, if you weren’t being so angry and saying so many mean things, maybe people wouldn’t post your personal information or threaten to violate you sexually.”

            Do the SJW make problems? Yeah, sometimes, not even gonna deny it. I see some seriously unreasonable stuff. But the problem is that the concept of “SJW” is now just one more people throw in to avoid having a discussion. Any critique of how media acts towards women or minorities is jumped on as SJW, because throwing out words like “SJW” and “White Knight” work to shame more reasonable people into not participating, while stirring up the problem element on both sides into a frenzy.

            I dunno. I just know that AS got rape and death threats for daring to do a video series about women in video games. I don’t even like FF very much or agree with a lot of the things she says. But I also know gendered insults and threats are the go-to for a lot of guys, with or without SJW coming in to shout them down. And we don’t really need to “understand” why they do it, any more than I needed to understand that making a dumb joke when my sibling was in a Mood would result in me getting hit, because at the end of the day the answer isn’t “don’t do the thing that Makes Them Do That.” It’s “Make Doing That Unacceptable and Enforce Consequences.”

          • Brian Crocker

            A-fucking-men.

    • TuCool

      When 4chan donated to the game jam that Zoe tried to ruin, a game jam designed to help put female ideas in video games, Feminist Frequency criticized the game jam for taking money from 4chan,or as Anita called it, “the cathedral of misogyny.”

      So nevermind 4chan creating a female character and funding a game to bring women into gaming, probably more than Feminist Frequency has ever done to help, Fem Frequency would rather be mad that it came from 4chan.

      So yeah, they are part of the problem. Feminist Frequency exists to crusade against video games, not to help women in video games.

      • Kingdo Goodbomber

        tried to ruin? No, she done ruined it because she was jealous/threatened.

        You see, she is a SJW so logical, reasoned behavior doesn’t apply. It doesn’t have to, their feminists!

      • sd4f

        I think you hit the nail on the head. 4chan rose to the situation and actually have done something productive to make a point, meanwhile, FemFreq still condemn and want to ruin it. I guess it was obvious, since Quinn wanted it destroyed in the first place.

      • FuryOfFirestorm

        Anita’s just mad that she didn’t get a cut of that sweet, sweet cash.

        • Brian Crocker

          She got plenty of money. Every hater that views her videos, every guy like Thunderd0uche and Amazing Assholiest that watches her videos to do “research”, gives her money via monetization. Plus she got more than enough money via Kickstarter to make making the videos a decently paying job.

          • Ian

            Plus steal gameplayes,artwork and make copy paste to tropestv and Wikipedia.

            This make making the vídeos a decently paying job.

          • Brian Crocker

            She doesn’t “steal” gameplays. Go check out the term “fair use” it applies. Lets Plays are in a grey legal area in terms of copyright. I believe, like TB, LP are transformative, and thus legally fall under “fair use”. Nothing happens with the game if noone plays it, it sits there. BUT, that doesn’t mean the LPer owns copyright on the footage of them playing the game. Because almost none of the transformative aspect of it – the commentary and interaction – is in the footage Anita is showing. It’s just the game being played. If she used footage that had imbedded facecam, that might be an issue.
            But again, what she is doing is also “transformative”.
            Quote: The 1961 Report of the Register of Copyrights on the General Revision of the U.S. Copyright Law cites examples of activities that courts have regarded as fair use: “quotation of excerpts in a review or criticism for purposes of illustration or comment; quotation of short passages in a scholarly or technical work, for illustration or clarification of the author’s observations;”
            Both of these apply, both in terms of use of artwork, and in use of LP footage.

      • Brian Crocker

        “FF exists to crusdade against video games” – wait what? FF existed and created tons of videos before the recent video game series. And her series isn’t even AGAINST video games. She is merely pointing out the very real problem the industry has with representation of females in games. She is not calling for video games to be banned, cancelled or taken off the shelves. Merely pointing out the problems, explaining why they are problems, in an effort to hopefully improve the portrayal of females in the future. Period. End of story.

    • Nessuno

      Extremist? Maybe not. That is, if many of her claims weren´t outright misrepresentations of the games she is supposedly analyzing. See her analysis of Hitman.

  • TuCool

    Zoe Quinn attacked and doxxed a game jam directed to help women because she wanted money from a charity event. She capitalized on Robin Williams death to push her game which is abut depression. She cheated on her boyfriend with game journalists and it has gained her backing from those publications. And when “gamers” get mad about this and are vehemently discussing it, they are labeled as mouth-breathing virgin misogynists and any discussion is not allowed or deleted because a user might use “triggering language.”

    Ever since the #1reasonwhy campaign and Anita Sarkeesian’s videos, SJWs feel they have cherry-picked enough examples to push a cultural narrative that women are horribly oppressed in gaming, and that any criticism of this is just “the patriarchy” trying to keep women down. The gaming press has been in such a sad state that they have been publishing these stories simply for the increased ad revenue, sometimes manufacturing controversy for more hits, and now the movement is larger than ever.

    It is sick that calling a woman out for doing something wrong, or pointing out that a woman’s opinion is factually incorrect is met with fanatical responses from white knights who are quick to attack people for who they are, not their arguments, because their hypocrisy knows no bounds. The people who really care about video games, who actually enjoy it as a hobby and follow the news, are being disenfranchised by people who are just using controversial agendas to make a quick buck, and no one likes a quick buck more than game journalists. To them, everything would be fine if the fans would just eat it all up and stop complaining about the corruption and hypocrisy and just give up.

    Sadly for them, we’re not as stupid or as weak-willed as they would like us to be.

    • Kingdo Goodbomber

      MISOGYNIST!!!!

      REFUSAL TO OFFER UNQUALIFIED SUPPORT FOR ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING WITH A VAGINA IS MISOGYNY!!!!! EXPECT TO BE REPORTED TO THE NEAREST SOCIAL JUSTICE ENFORCER!!! I HOPE YOU DON’T LIKE WORKING, CIS SCUM!!!!

      • Fbreezy

        Lol.

  • TuCool

    Zoe Quinn attacked and doxxed a game jam directed to help women because she wanted money from a charity event. She capitalized on Robin Williams death to push her game which is abut depression. She cheated on her boyfriend with game journalists and it has gained her backing from those publications. And when “gamers” get mad about this and are vehemently discussing it, they are labeled as mouth-breathing virgin misogynists and any discussion is not allowed or deleted because a user might use “triggering language.”

    Ever since the #1reasonwhy campaign and Anita Sarkeesian’s videos, SJWs feel they have cherry-picked enough examples to push a cultural narrative that women are horribly oppressed in gaming, and that any criticism of this is just “the patriarchy” trying to keep women down. The gaming press has been in such a sad state that they have been publishing these stories simply for the increased ad revenue, sometimes manufacturing controversy for more hits, and now the movement is larger than ever.

    It is sick that calling a woman out for doing something wrong, or pointing out that a woman’s opinion is factually incorrect is met with fanatical responses from white knights who are quick to attack people for who they are, not their arguments, because their hypocrisy knows no bounds. The people who really care about video games, who actually enjoy it as a hobby and follow the news, are being disenfranchised by people who are just using controversial agendas to make a quick buck, and no one likes a quick buck more than game journalists. To them, everything would be fine if the fans would just eat it all up and stop complaining about the corruption and hypocrisy and just give up.

    Sadly for them, we’re not as stupid or as weak-willed as they would like us to be.

    • Kingdo Goodbomber

      MISOGYNIST!!!!

      REFUSAL TO OFFER UNQUALIFIED SUPPORT FOR ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING WITH A VAGINA IS MISOGYNY!!!!! EXPECT TO BE REPORTED TO THE NEAREST SOCIAL JUSTICE ENFORCER!!! I HOPE YOU DON’T LIKE WORKING, CIS SCUM!!!!

      • Fbreezy

        Lol.

  • Mewi

    I just skim read this article. This is what I have gathered.

    As a female and a gamer, I have seen rampant sexism from the opposing gender. This usually revolves around the same theme, a guy feels like he got his balls cut off VIA rejection and he lashes out by projecting his sexual fantasies of the person in a manner that discredits them.

    Psychology 101.

    Also, to all of you anti feminist fox noise misogynistic followers. We feminists don’t want your balls, so keep them in your pants. Good day~

    • Kingdo Goodbomber

      so you offer unqualified support to women who cheat on men with other married men in order to further their career? You know, because.. uh, feminism?

      “Go Team Vagina!”

      That’s what passes for Third Wave Feminism, is it? Pathetic, No wonder anyone who digs beneath the surface doesn’t take anything Social Justice Whiners have to say seriously. Bunch of authoritarian hypocrites.

      • Mewi

        Evidence? I see none.

        Should I care? No. Why? Because all of the major game journalists are bought off already by the industries leaders. This is nothing more than a teeny bopper soap opera that misleads us from the true corruption in journalism.

        What is the primary cause of this corruption? It isn’t sex, it isn’t feminists. It is [MONEY]. Welcome back to reality, please take your seat.

        Also you humans care far too much about sex in a very irrational manner.

        • Kingdo Goodbomber

          oh, so since everyone is corrupt that makes her corruption and cynicism perfectly reasonable! Phew, at first I thought there might actually be a problem with video game journalism.

          • Mewi

            No evidence to this effect. This soap opera is nothing more than a fluff piece that detracts from the real problem.

            For example, if I told you the world was to be destroyed the next day.. and then you complained about your car breaking down the other day… well that would seem irrational.

            This is nothing more than typical political garbage. Opponents, corporations, etc of politicians, have used sex as a mean to brainwash the masses. “Don’t vote for him he cheated on his wife!” Money corrupts far more rampantly, I promise you.

          • Kingdo Goodbomber

            right, so she posts doctored pics and lies about being mugged and trolled and fake doxxes herself and sleeps with people in positions that can advance her career and she isn’t a scumbag because, um… feminism!

            I’ll bet if it were your BF that was smashing Zoe Hamplanet then your opinion of “free sex” would be different. Because that is how feminists operate, to wit, “it’s only bad when men do it or it happens to someone else.”

          • Mewi

            The imperfection is yours. I don’t place much value on sex. Sex is a simple biological function. However you clearly do place a lot of value in it.

            All I argue is that whoever engages in sex, please have sex responsibly~

          • Whatever

            No one gives two shits who she fucked. It’s the mass censorship all these sites are giving. Let me give you the super bias that is in the the industry. Matt Tempkin was accused of rape based on a blog post, and all the gaming sites ate that shit up. And when he denied it, all the gaming sites attitudes are pretty much “LOL yea sure bro”

            Now there’s all this shit on Zoe, they censor EVERYTHING and no one is speaking a single word. You are LITERALLY not allowed to speak a single word on it on any gaming site. JESUS – THAT IS WHY PEOPLE ARE MAD. NO ONE GIVES A FUCK SHE A VAGINA. Maybe because no one is talking about the corrupt journalist who fucking cheated is because there’s no where to talk about it.

          • Mewi

            Also lets assume all of your ‘evidence’ is true. I see no one complaining about the corrupt journalist who had cheated on his wife.

            I guess he was just a victim of circumstance and hormones and was also only a victim of her feminine wiles. *rollseyes*

          • shadus

            Ok so lets reverse the situation. Say Zoe was posting information about her indie game developer boyfriend sleeping with unnamed game journalists. Its a conflict of interest no matter how you put it. The truth is the problem isn’t Zoe Quinn but instead the close relationships developers and journalists have. I will admit that men are not held responsible enough for cases of infidelity but that should be about holding men up to higher standard not lowering the standards for everyone.

          • FarisFB

            can you name the journalist? cause i never heard about this story….

          • kimkilwhan

            >I see no one complaining about the corrupt journalist who had cheated on his wife.

            Exactly. It’s right in front of your face but YOU DON’T SEE IT, because a man getting trolled on the internet is business as usual, but when it happens to a woman everyone loses their minds.

          • Kingdo Goodbomber

            A liar sociopath posts a twit saying she was mugged and needs rent money and all her little cultists line up to donate without second guessing a word of her pity party.

            A man posts screen caps and evidence and it is hearsay because… well, he’s a man.

          • Miglet32

            “No evidence to this effect. This soap opera is nothing more than a fluff piece that detracts from the real problem.”

            I definitely do not agree. Too many articles and Twitter accounts make grossly negligent generalizations about sensitive topics by either indentifying the problem as “gamers” or “all gamers” or “all males” or “all females” or “all SJWs”, etc.

            There is a distinct level of narrative bias and sometimes outright yellow journalism at play in gaming journalism.

          • Kingdo Goodbomber

            but it turns out there isn’t a problem when you frame the industry as being full of unethical horndogs and wh0ring. then they are just acting normal! And somehow all these conflicts of interest are GOOD for video games and journalism! Not knowing whether or not to trust a review because the reviewer may have diddled the developer at a drunken con orgy? Sounds like ethical journalism to me!

    • BabaYaga

      hey feminazi. Why dont you dress like Fuhrer and go create the 4th reich!

      sieg games! you forgot…

      and oh… i dont play games… I love games but i dont play games okeeyy

      • Mewi

        Please keep validating my points.

    • Bebop McCop

      You sound like a political lesbian.

      • Jon Stone

        wtf is a political lesbian?

        • Tim

          Stupid second-wave movement where straight women decided that all sex with men was oppressive and shacked up with other straight women to have embarrassing, meaningless relationships.

          The second wave was very, very stupid.

      • Mewi

        and what if I am? What are you going to do about it? lol~

        • BabaYaga

          a mental therapy should work for you if you accept that you have a problem little girl. Gaming is not for you it seems. It makes you SJW´s very angry and illogical. You also have no balls….

          do you like to use a joySTICK ?

          • Mewi

            So lets sum up Dom Corleones personality

            Sexist
            Homophobic
            Conspiratorial

          • BabaYaga

            you forgot that i am a racist and an eradicator of the living. A priest of satan and i love chichenwings…

    • Nessuno

      That´s actually not at all what this article is about. Please reread and try again.

      • Michieie

        You can’t ask her to do that. That’s rape and she probably can’t into reading comprehension.

    • sd4f

      How can you comment if you admit to just skimming the article? If you’d read the article you’d have seen that it’s about journalistic integrity and ethics of the industry.

      The whole problem isn’t about misogyny, it’s that the charge of misogyny is being used to silence criticism about the corruption.

      This whole problem is way bigger than Zoe Quinn, it’s about the corruption and incestuous relationships that game ‘journalists’ and developers and publishers have, and how they treat their customers as suckers and fools. Never mind the facts that the whole wizardchan issue appears to have been made up completely, immediately castigating a depressed group of people into further undeserved problems. This is just a despicable example of Quinn using other people’s misery for her own material gain.

      • Michieie

        She’s a feminist. By asking her to read or think you’re exerting way too much patriarchy on her.

  • Mewi

    I just skim read this article. This is what I have gathered.

    As a female and a gamer, I have seen rampant sexism from the opposing gender. This usually revolves around the same theme, a guy feels like he got his balls cut off VIA rejection and he lashes out by projecting his sexual fantasies of the person in a manner that discredits them.

    Psychology 101.

    Also, to all of you anti feminist fox noise misogynistic followers. We feminists don’t want your balls, so keep them in your pants. Good day~

    • Kingdo Goodbomber

      so you offer unqualified support to women who cheat on men with other married men in order to further their career? You know, because.. uh, feminism?

      “Go Team Vagina!”

      That’s what passes for Third Wave Feminism, is it? Pathetic, No wonder anyone who digs beneath the surface doesn’t take anything Social Justice Whiners have to say seriously. Bunch of authoritarian hypocrites.

      • Mewi

        Evidence? I see none.

        Should I care? No. Why? Because all of the major game journalists are bought off already by the industries leaders. This is nothing more than a teeny bopper soap opera that misleads us from the true corruption in journalism.

        What is the primary cause of this corruption? It isn’t sex, it isn’t feminists. It is [MONEY]. Welcome back to reality, please take your seat.

        Also you humans care far too much about sex in a very irrational manner.

        • Kingdo Goodbomber

          oh, so since everyone is corrupt that makes her corruption and cynicism perfectly reasonable! Phew, at first I thought there might actually be a problem with video game journalism.

          • Mewi

            No evidence to this effect. This soap opera is nothing more than a fluff piece that detracts from the real problem.

            For example, if I told you the world was to be destroyed the next day.. and then you complained about your car breaking down the other day… well that would seem irrational.

            This is nothing more than typical political garbage. Opponents, corporations, etc of politicians, have used sex as a mean to brainwash the masses. “Don’t vote for him he cheated on his wife!” Money corrupts far more rampantly, I promise you.

          • Kingdo Goodbomber

            right, so she posts doctored pics and lies about being mugged and trolled and fake doxxes herself and sleeps with people in positions that can advance her career and she isn’t a scumbag because, um… feminism!

            I’ll bet if it were your BF that was smashing Zoe Hamplanet then your opinion of “free sex” would be different. Because that is how feminists operate, to wit, “it’s only bad when men do it or it happens to someone else.”

          • Mewi

            The imperfection is yours. I don’t place much value on sex. Sex is a simple biological function. However you clearly do place a lot of value in it.

            All I argue is that whoever engages in sex, please have sex responsibly~

          • Whatever

            No one gives two shits who she fucked. It’s the mass censorship all these sites are giving. Let me give you the super bias that is in the the industry. Matt Tempkin was accused of rape based on a blog post, and all the gaming sites ate that shit up. And when he denied it, all the gaming sites attitudes are pretty much “LOL yea sure bro”

            Now there’s all this shit on Zoe, they censor EVERYTHING and no one is speaking a single word. You are LITERALLY not allowed to speak a single word on it on any gaming site. JESUS – THAT IS WHY PEOPLE ARE MAD. NO ONE GIVES A FUCK SHE A VAGINA. Maybe because no one is talking about the corrupt journalist who fucking cheated is because there’s no where to talk about it.

          • Mewi

            Also lets assume all of your ‘evidence’ is true. I see no one complaining about the corrupt journalist who had cheated on his wife.

            I guess he was just a victim of circumstance and hormones and was also only a victim of her feminine wiles. *rollseyes*

          • shadus

            Ok so lets reverse the situation. Say Zoe was posting information about her indie game developer boyfriend sleeping with unnamed game journalists. Its a conflict of interest no matter how you put it. The truth is the problem isn’t Zoe Quinn but instead the close relationships developers and journalists have. I will admit that men are not held responsible enough for cases of infidelity but that should be about holding men up to higher standard not lowering the standards for everyone.

          • FarisFB

            can you name the journalist? cause i never heard about this story….

          • kimkilwhan

            >I see no one complaining about the corrupt journalist who had cheated on his wife.

            Exactly. It’s right in front of your face but YOU DON’T SEE IT, because a man getting trolled on the internet is business as usual, but when it happens to a woman everyone loses their minds.

          • Kingdo Goodbomber

            A liar sociopath posts a twit saying she was mugged and needs rent money and all her little cultists line up to donate without second guessing a word of her pity party.

            A man posts screen caps and evidence and it is hearsay because… well, he’s a man.

          • Miglet32

            “No evidence to this effect. This soap opera is nothing more than a fluff piece that detracts from the real problem.”

            I definitely do not agree. Too many articles and Twitter accounts make grossly negligent generalizations about sensitive topics by either indentifying the problem as “gamers” or “all gamers” or “all males” or “all females” or “all SJWs”, etc.

            There is a distinct level of narrative bias and sometimes outright yellow journalism at play in gaming journalism.

          • Kingdo Goodbomber

            but it turns out there isn’t a problem when you frame the industry as being full of unethical horndogs and wh0ring. then they are just acting normal! And somehow all these conflicts of interest are GOOD for video games and journalism! Not knowing whether or not to trust a review because the reviewer may have diddled the developer at a drunken con orgy? Sounds like ethical journalism to me!

    • BabaYaga

      hey feminazi. Why dont you dress like Fuhrer and go create the 4th reich!

      sieg games! you forgot…

      and oh… i dont play games… I love games but i dont play games okeeyy

      • Mewi

        Please keep validating my points.

    • Bebop McCop

      You sound like a political lesbian.

      • Jon Stone

        wtf is a political lesbian?

        • Tim

          Stupid second-wave movement where straight women decided that all sex with men was oppressive and shacked up with other straight women to have embarrassing, meaningless relationships.

          The second wave was very, very stupid.

      • Mewi

        and what if I am? What are you going to do about it? lol~

        • BabaYaga

          a mental therapy should work for you if you accept that you have a problem little girl. Gaming is not for you it seems. It makes you SJW´s very angry and illogical. You also have no balls….

          do you like to use a joySTICK ?

          • Mewi

            So lets sum up Dom Corleones personality

            Sexist
            Homophobic
            Conspiratorial

          • BabaYaga

            you forgot that i am a racist and an eradicator of the living. A priest of satan and i love chichenwings…

    • Nessuno

      That´s actually not at all what this article is about. Please reread and try again.

      • Michieie

        You can’t ask her to do that. That’s rape and she probably can’t into reading comprehension.

    • sd4f

      How can you comment if you admit to just skimming the article? If you’d read the article you’d have seen that it’s about journalistic integrity and ethics of the industry.

      The whole problem isn’t about misogyny, it’s that the charge of misogyny is being used to silence criticism about the corruption.

      This whole problem is way bigger than Zoe Quinn, it’s about the corruption and incestuous relationships that game ‘journalists’ and developers and publishers have, and how they treat their customers as suckers and fools. Never mind the facts that the whole wizardchan issue appears to have been made up completely, immediately castigating a depressed group of people into further undeserved problems. This is just a despicable example of Quinn using other people’s misery for her own material gain.

      • Michieie

        She’s a feminist. By asking her to read or think you’re exerting way too much patriarchy on her.

  • Kingdo Goodbomber

    The following two quotes pretty much sums up everything you need to know about goldbricking SJW charlatans, pretenders and hypocrites that are ruining the industry. They aren’t even real gamers, just a bunch of fakes looking for speaking gigs, a bunch of f*cking goldbrickers.

    “I’m not a fan of video games. I actually had to learn a lot about video games in the process of making this.”
    -SJW Anita (then)

    “This is a photo of me, at age ten playing Super Mario World on the Super Nintendo. So I’ve been playing games for quite a while.”
    -SJW Anita (now)

    • cookipuss

      I’ve seen her videos and the criticisms of her work, and I agree with a certain youtuber that she is really just a fraud.

      It seems like she saw an opportunity to cash in on SJW dupes. Sure, she may believe in the cause, but she also saw a business opportunity. I mean, she raised $165,000.00 for her Tropes vs. Women in Games series, and so far has made 6 videos, so that’s about 30 grand per vid so far. Kinda steep for her “research” which apparently does not include actually playing the games herself and making unsupported claims without any links to evidence to support them.

      Then in typical SJW fashion, she shuts down all opposing views to her work, claiming sexism, abuse etc. Like a toddler who puts their fingers in their ears and shouts: Lalalalalalalalalala.

      This woman is not criticized because she is a woman, but because her claims are not supported by evidence, but I guess in today’s world, that doesn’t matter. Just shout the loudest and shut down all opposition with SJW nonsense.

  • Kingdo Goodbomber

    The following two quotes pretty much sums up everything you need to know about goldbricking SJW charlatans, pretenders and hypocrites that are ruining the industry. They aren’t even real gamers, just a bunch of fakes looking for speaking gigs, a bunch of f*cking goldbrickers.

    “I’m not a fan of video games. I actually had to learn a lot about video games in the process of making this.”
    -SJW Anita (then)

    “This is a photo of me, at age ten playing Super Mario World on the Super Nintendo. So I’ve been playing games for quite a while.”
    -SJW Anita (now)

    • cookipuss

      I’ve seen her videos and the criticisms of her work, and I agree with a certain youtuber that she is really just a fraud.

      It seems like she saw an opportunity to cash in on SJW dupes. Sure, she may believe in the cause, but she also saw a business opportunity. I mean, she raised $165,000.00 for her Tropes vs. Women in Games series, and so far has made 6 videos, so that’s about 30 grand per vid so far. Kinda steep for her “research” which apparently does not include actually playing the games herself and making unsupported claims without any links to evidence to support them.

      Then in typical SJW fashion, she shuts down all opposing views to her work, claiming sexism, abuse etc. Like a toddler who puts their fingers in their ears and shouts: Lalalalalalalalalala.

      This woman is not criticized because she is a woman, but because her claims are not supported by evidence, but I guess in today’s world, that doesn’t matter. Just shout the loudest and shut down all opposition with SJW nonsense.

  • BabaYaga

    Anita Fraudster and Quinn are NOT game developers. Forget that. Not possible and will never happen. You habe been fooled by a fraud from a fraud into a fraud.

    So, usually this case should be closed but as we now know. SJW´s are everywhere on their rampage of depression. Yes you frauds are what make people angry. You lie, cheat and give gaming a bad name. But it is YOU looking into a mirror only!

  • BabaYaga

    Anita Fraudster and Quinn are NOT game developers. Forget that. Not possible and will never happen. You habe been fooled by a fraud from a fraud into a fraud.

    So, usually this case should be closed but as we now know. SJW´s are everywhere on their rampage of depression. Yes you frauds are what make people angry. You lie, cheat and give gaming a bad name. But it is YOU looking into a mirror only!

  • Kingdo Goodbomber

    If you want to see what social justice activism is really about (i.e. self-aggrandizing and self-promotion on a quest for riches) then just spend a few minutes reading Suey Park’s twit page.

    “Hi, I’m Suey! I’m a writer, comedian, social justice activist, speaker, presenter, etc. please contact me for $$$paid$$$ gigs! Pay me for what I call ‘comedy’! Oh, and guys treat me bad and are mean and make me sad! How am I supposed to change the world if my boyfriend is mean to me???? WHAAA MOMMY!!!”

    Absolutely pathetic.

  • Kingdo Goodbomber

    If you want to see what social justice activism is really about (i.e. self-aggrandizing and self-promotion on a quest for riches) then just spend a few minutes reading Suey Park’s twit page.

    “Hi, I’m Suey! I’m a writer, comedian, social justice activist, speaker, presenter, etc. please contact me for $$$paid$$$ gigs! Pay me for what I call ‘comedy’! Oh, and guys treat me bad and are mean and make me sad! How am I supposed to change the world if my boyfriend is mean to me???? WHAAA MOMMY!!!”

    Absolutely pathetic.

  • Kingdo Goodbomber

    Who needs ethical journalism when you can have drunken casual sex?

  • Kingdo Goodbomber

    Who needs ethical journalism when you can have drunken casual sex?

  • Bbut patriarchy

    [This comment was removed by order of Zoe Quinn]

    • Miglet32

      I’ll admit it… I lol’d.

    • cylinder1024

      [Data Expunged]

    • Glenn McBride

      ROFL! But seriously, in the end, that is what this is all about. Like the man says, if you want to know who rules over you, find out whom you can not criticize.

  • Bbut patriarchy

    [This comment was removed by order of Zoe Quinn]

    • Miglet32

      I’ll admit it… I lol’d.

    • cylinder1024

      [Data Expunged]

    • Glenn McBride

      ROFL! But seriously, in the end, that is what this is all about. Like the man says, if you want to know who rules over you, find out whom you can not criticize.

  • BabaYaga

    The biggest fraud in gaming is that gamers care about feminism and sexism. And that Kotaku is not a political tool !

  • BabaYaga

    The biggest fraud in gaming is that gamers care about feminism and sexism. And that Kotaku is not a political tool !

  • Greg Stanopoulous

    Thanks for this one. Very good, comprehensive guide on what’s been happening.

  • Greg Stanopoulous

    Thanks for this one. Very good, comprehensive guide on what’s been happening.

  • Kingdo Goodbomber

    Social Work:

    http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/iq-by-college-major-gender.png

    Over 75% women
    Average IQ ~100.

    http://www.statisticbrain.com/iq-estimates-by-intended-college-major/

    Communications Degree (e.g, Anita and Rebecca) Average IQ = 111

    Compared to:

    Mathematics Degree: <50% female, average IQ = 130
    Comp sci: <25% female, Average IQ = 124

    Any questions? Patriarchy?

    TLDR: SJW are just not very smart. That's why they don't major in comp sci and math and don't go on to develop software and games. They're too dumb to get it. So they do the only thing they are good at: nagging.

    • Guest

      Most SJW’s wont get it. As this graph shows, they’re not smart enough to comprehend statistics.

  • Kingdo Goodbomber

    Social Work:

    http://www.randalolson.com/wp-content/uploads/iq-by-college-major-gender.png

    Over 75% women
    Average IQ ~100.

    http://www.statisticbrain.com/iq-estimates-by-intended-college-major/

    Communications Degree (e.g, Anita and Rebecca) Average IQ = 111

    Compared to:

    Mathematics Degree: <50% female, average IQ = 130
    Comp sci: <25% female, Average IQ = 124

    Any questions? Patriarchy?

    TLDR: SJW are just not very smart. That's why they don't major in comp sci and math and don't go on to develop software and games. They're too dumb to get it. So they do the only thing they are good at: nagging.

    • Guest

      Most SJW’s wont get it. As this graph shows, they’re not smart enough to comprehend statistics.

  • vikeyev

    Great article, unbiased, objective and impartial. I hope to see more from you, if only the rest of the game Journos were more like you :/.

  • vikeyev

    Great article, unbiased, objective and impartial. I hope to see more from you, if only the rest of the game Journos were more like you :/.

  • cylinder1024

    This has been probably the best article summarizing what the hell is going on and why people are flaking out. I was pretty disappointed when Florence had to step down from Eurogamer for speaking the truth back in the day and I’m equally disappointed that news sites are so biased and victimizing one side.
    I am quite frankly fed up with how people are being treated on all sides in this industry and can only hope that we move past this bullshit and start holding all involved accountable, from consumers, to journalists, to developers, to the pseudo-righteous and sycophants.
    I envision a future where we can enjoy the games we like without judgement, a future where we don’t have this drama, where journalists in the industry report the truth and not assault us with bullshit clickbait sensationalist garbage, where opportunists come gallivanting in with their cavalier attitudes telling everyone everything is wrong with their hobby, where Phil Fish finally says something worthwhile, where gamers are not acting like morons and actually voting with their clicks and their dollars instead of just taking it and then spit unintelligent vitriol in the form of racial/homophobic epitaphs. When that day comes I’ll probably finally get around to playing Dark Souls.

    • Trozomuro Leopoldo

      I call it: The Past.

  • cylinder1024

    This has been probably the best article summarizing what the hell is going on and why people are flaking out. I was pretty disappointed when Florence had to step down from Eurogamer for speaking the truth back in the day and I’m equally disappointed that news sites are so biased and victimizing one side.
    I am quite frankly fed up with how people are being treated on all sides in this industry and can only hope that we move past this bullshit and start holding all involved accountable, from consumers, to journalists, to developers, to the pseudo-righteous and sycophants.
    I envision a future where we can enjoy the games we like without judgement, a future where we don’t have this drama, where journalists in the industry report the truth and not assault us with bullshit clickbait sensationalist garbage, where opportunists come gallivanting in with their cavalier attitudes telling everyone everything is wrong with their hobby, where Phil Fish finally says something worthwhile, where gamers are not acting like morons and actually voting with their clicks and their dollars instead of just taking it and then spit unintelligent vitriol in the form of racial/homophobic epitaphs. When that day comes I’ll probably finally get around to playing Dark Souls.

    • Trozomuro Leopoldo

      I call it: The Past.

  • Taylan

    It’s disheartening to see the comments filled with the same propoganda the article has pointed out to be, at best, a diversion from the real issue, and at worst, self-destructive nonsense that paints our community in such a poor light. Zoe Quinn was just a catalyst, and is at this point hardly relevent. Gender has nothing to do with the lack of moral fiber in our industry, and the repetetive few below (and likely above) me are just static drowning out the real noise.

    Thanks for the great article, Derek! It’s good that the real issue is being brought to light.

  • Taylan

    It’s disheartening to see the comments filled with the same propoganda the article has pointed out to be, at best, a diversion from the real issue, and at worst, self-destructive nonsense that paints our community in such a poor light. Zoe Quinn was just a catalyst, and is at this point hardly relevent. Gender has nothing to do with the lack of moral fiber in our industry, and the repetetive few below (and likely above) me are just static drowning out the real noise.

    Thanks for the great article, Derek! It’s good that the real issue is being brought to light.

  • Wolfe

    The best example of reputable journalism I’ve seen in this hobbyist market in well over a decade. Well done sir.

  • Wolfe

    The best example of reputable journalism I’ve seen in this hobbyist market in well over a decade. Well done sir.

  • Me

    This is one of the most ignorant articles that I have ever read. First off, many other sites are reporting that the journalist with whom Quinn allegedly had a relationship did not review her game. So right there, it is difficult to see how a conflict of interest would exist.

    But leaving that aside, in a situation where a relationship exists between a journalist and a developer, the responsibility is on the journalist to either recuse themselves from reviewing the game, or to disclose the relationship. The developer is not the responsible party

    So the reason why people are dismissing your points is because you lack a basic understanding both of the situation and of journalism ethics. There was no COI in this case, because the journalist did not review the game. Even if the journalist had reviewed the game, any breach of ethics by not disclosing a potential COI would lie with him, not with her.

    • Livnthedream

      Then you should take a look at the source. I agree that the allegation of sex for publicity is weak. there is no direct evidence for it and I honestly wish many would drop it as a talking point. However, that is really the least of what she is accused of, some of which has already been effectively confirmed. For example the initial claim of harassment against Wizardchan that rocketed her to popularity. Tito flat out said they took her at her word and ran the story without a shred of fact checking. Even if you discount the Zoeblog, her actions on Twitter alone, today, show her to be a liar, which means the original call of harassment cannot be trusted. The circumstantial evidence that supports Wizardchan being entirely harmless also weighs against it.

      There is the drama she stirred up (which is what she lied about today) against tfyc the first time combined with opening her own jam, and then directing the paypal to take donations for the event to her personal payapal account is at best distasteful (much like using Williams for publicity) and at worst flat out fraud.

      The false DMCA claim can be dismissed because there is no real evidence, though it certainly fits with her messaging admins on Reddit to shut down all discussion. The leaked chat logs and subsequent demodding of the only person that refused and allegedly released the logs further points to a significant level of spin she tried to put on the story.

      Zoe started out of the trigger on this, but it has grown past her. Patricia Hernandez for example blatantly violating policy. Numerous articles against men for similar allegations but completely tight lipped when it comes to Zoe, and then an Editor and Chief blatantly coming out and saying that they have a bias to believe “victims” without fact checking? Whether Zoe fucked for clicks or not is irrelevant in the face of larger toxic issues being revealed. She needs to be crucified for being a manipulative liar, and Grayson should be crucified many times over for not recusing himself from mentioning her at all. Even if they weren’t having a relationship, he was still paying into her Patreon. That is a problem too.

      • TerribleName

        The DMCA takedown claim was actually substantiated by MundaneMatt. Zoe tried to enact a cover up before this blew up by bullying a dude’s video off the internet. Classy.

        Max Temkin, one of the creators of Cards Against Humanity, had an ex allege that he raped her many years previously. There was absolutely no evidence beyond her word. Several extremely negative high profile articles were written about him with no attempt made to respect the privacy of his sex life or shield him from abuse. Many of those same sites, staffed by people in Zoe’s circle of friends, are now painting Zoe as almost exclusively the victim or just not reporting it at all in an effort to respect her privacy. And of course talking about her private sex life is just insensitive. That is the kind of protection having the right kind of friends gets you.

        And I think the reason Grayson is avoiding so much flack is because he wisely shut the hell up and went to ground when this whole thing erupted, while Zoe has been screaming about it and proclaiming her victimization from the mountaintops. Anyone with intelligence knows not to feed the trolls online because they can’t be reasoned with.

        • Livnthedream

          The DMCA is easily faked and pretty much everyone has said so.

          Max Temkin is definitely a problem and shows a terrible trend.

  • Me

    This is one of the most ignorant articles that I have ever read. First off, many other sites are reporting that the journalist with whom Quinn allegedly had a relationship did not review her game. So right there, it is difficult to see how a conflict of interest would exist.

    But leaving that aside, in a situation where a relationship exists between a journalist and a developer, the responsibility is on the journalist to either recuse themselves from reviewing the game, or to disclose the relationship. The developer is not the responsible party

    So the reason why people are dismissing your points is because you lack a basic understanding both of the situation and of journalism ethics. There was no COI in this case, because the journalist did not review the game. Even if the journalist had reviewed the game, any breach of ethics by not disclosing a potential COI would lie with him, not with her.

    • Livnthedream

      Then you should take a look at the source. I agree that the allegation of sex for publicity is weak. there is no direct evidence for it and I honestly wish many would drop it as a talking point. However, that is really the least of what she is accused of, some of which has already been effectively confirmed. For example the initial claim of harassment against Wizardchan that rocketed her to popularity. Tito flat out said they took her at her word and ran the story without a shred of fact checking. Even if you discount the Zoeblog, her actions on Twitter alone, today, show her to be a liar, which means the original call of harassment cannot be trusted. The circumstantial evidence that supports Wizardchan being entirely harmless also weighs against it.

      There is the drama she stirred up (which is what she lied about today) against tfyc the first time combined with opening her own jam, and then directing the paypal to take donations for the event to her personal payapal account is at best distasteful (much like using Williams for publicity) and at worst flat out fraud.

      The false DMCA claim can be dismissed because there is no real evidence, though it certainly fits with her messaging admins on Reddit to shut down all discussion. The leaked chat logs and subsequent demodding of the only person that refused and allegedly released the logs further points to a significant level of spin she tried to put on the story.

      Zoe started out of the trigger on this, but it has grown past her. Patricia Hernandez for example blatantly violating policy. Numerous articles against men for similar allegations but completely tight lipped when it comes to Zoe, and then an Editor and Chief blatantly coming out and saying that they have a bias to believe “victims” without fact checking? Whether Zoe fucked for clicks or not is irrelevant in the face of larger toxic issues being revealed. She needs to be crucified for being a manipulative liar, and Grayson should be crucified many times over for not recusing himself from mentioning her at all. Even if they weren’t having a relationship, he was still paying into her Patreon. That is a problem too.

      • TerribleName

        The DMCA takedown claim was actually substantiated by MundaneMatt. Zoe tried to enact a cover up before this blew up by bullying a dude’s video off the internet. Classy.

        Max Temkin, one of the creators of Cards Against Humanity, had an ex allege that he raped her many years previously. There was absolutely no evidence beyond her word. Several extremely negative high profile articles were written about him with no attempt made to respect the privacy of his sex life or shield him from abuse. Many of those same sites, staffed by people in Zoe’s circle of friends, are now painting Zoe as almost exclusively the victim or just not reporting it at all in an effort to respect her privacy. And of course talking about her private sex life is just insensitive. That is the kind of protection having the right kind of friends gets you.

        And I think the reason Grayson is avoiding so much flack is because he wisely shut the hell up and went to ground when this whole thing erupted, while Zoe has been screaming about it and proclaiming her victimization from the mountaintops. Anyone with intelligence knows not to feed the trolls online because they can’t be reasoned with.

        • Livnthedream

          The DMCA is easily faked and pretty much everyone has said so.

          Max Temkin is definitely a problem and shows a terrible trend.

  • Me

    Also, Quinn’s game was distributed for free, and did not involve season-passes or DLC, so I don’t even know why you spend the first quarter of the essay railing against these problems. I agree that some developers and publishers engage in business practices that hurt the industry as a whole. EA comes to mind as an egregious offender. But the thing is, many journalists have written (much better) articles discussing how EA screws over their customers. Many journalists have written about real problems in the industry and taken the actual culprits to task.

    You, on the other hand, seem to want to blame Quinn for everything that is wrong with gaming even though she does not appear to be responsible for any of the things that you are discussing.

    • cylinder1024

      I’ve read this article three times now since you have posted this and I do not see anywhere within the article where the writer is directly placing blame on one person. What I see is someone reporting on what is going on in the industry without a bias or trying to victimize a side. The writer is addressing the problem as a whole as opposed to just the Zoe Quinn issue, which is merely a footnote to what is the actual problem. It’s obvious that I’m not going to change your mind as it is very apparent that you are going to take away what you want from said article.
      I feel that this article articulates very well what is wrong with the industry. Something that most gamers can’t do very well due to them always sleeping with my mom.

    • Livnthedream

      There was no blaming, she was being painted as an example. Also, defending that “free” post that went as far to imply that Williams may be here if he had played it? Seriously?

    • TerribleName

      Just once I would like to see someone admit that Depression Quest isnt a very good game. Every story praises it as important, but its just a choose your own adventure book. The information on depression is, at best, what you would find on WebMD and at worst gives a skewed view of what depression is really like. Its just not a very good game, and no one seems willing to say it because no one wants to say anything bad about depression or the girl who made it.

      • Jon Stone

        “Just once I would like to see someone admit that Depression Quest isnt a very good game.”

        Well, try this perspective on for size: I haven’t played Depression Quest and probably won’t. I suspect it is not a game I’ll particularly enjoy.

        But I’m loathe to come out and criticise it, specifically because it seems anything negative anyone has to say about Zoe Quinn is immediately seized on by rabid cultists who believe that she’s Satan (this goes for her ex, who I strongly suspect regrets unleashing what he unleashed on her, because he must know no one deserves this shit). It’s a free game that some people have got something out of – it’s not doing any harm. She’s not a millionaire. Why does it need to be attacked?

        • TerribleName

          Who is attacking it? I just want someone to give Depression Quest an honest review in the midst of this huge battle over journalistic integrity. It isn’t a good game, but every single article out there either calls it important and groundbreaking or just tries not to mention the game at all. No one in the games journalism industry has the courage to actually fairly review the game, either out of misplaced loyalty to Zoe Quinn or out of fear of being labeled an immature virgin neckbeard misogynist hate monger for not liking a thing a woman made. This seems to be the soul of the problem here.

          Zoe Quinn, by nature of who she is, the people she knows and the things she says she represents is incapable of having her games fairly reviewed in the modern gaming press. Her buddies in the industry will make sure that a pretty sub par choose your own adventure web book will get frequently mentioned on big sites. Her legions of followers will intimidate and shout down anyone who might disagree with her, and then label any disagreement misogyny to get others to dogpile. Check out the fiasco with the Fine Young Capitalists. Zoe Quinn and her unthinking followers ‘accidently’ DDoSed a women’s charity because she didn’t agree with it and decided to label it sexist, which of course justified everything.

          Its pretty telling that your response to wanting someone to offer a substantive review of Depression Quest was to ask why it needs to be attacked. Criticism is not attacking. You can not like a thing without wanting to destroy it. People are allowed to feel differently than you about things, and that doesn’t inherently make them terrible people. The fact that you resent the idea that someone might not like the game and would have the audacity to say that out loud is troubling. And just because she put the game on Steam for free doesn’t mean she isn’t making money off of it and the publicity. Her Patreon (which she frequently plugs) is over $2000 a month now. People who liked Depression Quest (or like rescuing a damsel in distress from the horrifying masses of 4chan) are encouraged to give her money, which she keeps as opposed to donating to charity. Its still making a sale.

    • Kingdo Goodbomber

      HI ZOE!

    • Ben (Broken)

      Not really. I hold Nathan Grayson and Zoe’s boss as being just as liable if not more so. Heck, I have something against any game journo who has ever done a sensationalist shame-tactic clickbait piece and believe me,there are many.

    • Andrew

      Zoe Quinn is involved with Robin Arnott, who selected her as a Night Games winner, which came with a cash prize

  • Me

    Also, Quinn’s game was distributed for free, and did not involve season-passes or DLC, so I don’t even know why you spend the first quarter of the essay railing against these problems. I agree that some developers and publishers engage in business practices that hurt the industry as a whole. EA comes to mind as an egregious offender. But the thing is, many journalists have written (much better) articles discussing how EA screws over their customers. Many journalists have written about real problems in the industry and taken the actual culprits to task.

    You, on the other hand, seem to want to blame Quinn for everything that is wrong with gaming even though she does not appear to be responsible for any of the things that you are discussing.

    • cylinder1024

      I’ve read this article three times now since you have posted this and I do not see anywhere within the article where the writer is directly placing blame on one person. What I see is someone reporting on what is going on in the industry without a bias or trying to victimize a side. The writer is addressing the problem as a whole as opposed to just the Zoe Quinn issue, which is merely a footnote to what is the actual problem. It’s obvious that I’m not going to change your mind as it is very apparent that you are going to take away what you want from said article.
      I feel that this article articulates very well what is wrong with the industry. Something that most gamers can’t do very well due to them always sleeping with my mom.

    • Livnthedream

      There was no blaming, she was being painted as an example. Also, defending that “free” post that went as far to imply that Williams may be here if he had played it? Seriously?

    • TerribleName

      Just once I would like to see someone admit that Depression Quest isnt a very good game. Every story praises it as important, but its just a choose your own adventure book. The information on depression is, at best, what you would find on WebMD and at worst gives a skewed view of what depression is really like. Its just not a very good game, and no one seems willing to say it because no one wants to say anything bad about depression or the girl who made it.

      • Jon Stone

        “Just once I would like to see someone admit that Depression Quest isnt a very good game.”

        Well, try this perspective on for size: I haven’t played Depression Quest and probably won’t. I suspect it is not a game I’ll particularly enjoy.

        But I’m loathe to come out and criticise it, specifically because it seems anything negative anyone has to say about Zoe Quinn is immediately seized on by rabid cultists who believe that she’s Satan (this goes for her ex, who I strongly suspect regrets unleashing what he unleashed on her, because he must know no one deserves this shit). It’s a free game that some people have got something out of – it’s not doing any harm. She’s not a millionaire. Why does it need to be attacked?

        • TerribleName

          Who is attacking it? I just want someone to give Depression Quest an honest review in the midst of this huge battle over journalistic integrity. It isn’t a good game, but every single article out there either calls it important and groundbreaking or just tries not to mention the game at all. No one in the games journalism industry has the courage to actually fairly review the game, either out of misplaced loyalty to Zoe Quinn or out of fear of being labeled an immature virgin neckbeard misogynist hate monger for not liking a thing a woman made. This seems to be the soul of the problem here.

          Zoe Quinn, by nature of who she is, the people she knows and the things she says she represents is incapable of having her games fairly reviewed in the modern gaming press. Her buddies in the industry will make sure that a pretty sub par choose your own adventure web book will get frequently mentioned on big sites. Her legions of followers will intimidate and shout down anyone who might disagree with her, and then label any disagreement misogyny to get others to dogpile. Check out the fiasco with the Fine Young Capitalists. Zoe Quinn and her unthinking followers ‘accidently’ DDoSed a women’s charity because she didn’t agree with it and decided to label it sexist, which of course justified everything.

          Its pretty telling that your response to wanting someone to offer a substantive review of Depression Quest was to ask why it needs to be attacked. Criticism is not attacking. You can not like a thing without wanting to destroy it. People are allowed to feel differently than you about things, and that doesn’t inherently make them terrible people. The fact that you resent the idea that someone might not like the game and would have the audacity to say that out loud is troubling. And just because she put the game on Steam for free doesn’t mean she isn’t making money off of it and the publicity. Her Patreon (which she frequently plugs) is over $2000 a month now. People who liked Depression Quest (or like rescuing a damsel in distress from the horrifying masses of 4chan) are encouraged to give her money, which she keeps as opposed to donating to charity. Its still making a sale.

    • Kingdo Goodbomber

      HI ZOE!

    • Ben (Broken)

      Not really. I hold Nathan Grayson and Zoe’s boss as being just as liable if not more so. Heck, I have something against any game journo who has ever done a sensationalist shame-tactic clickbait piece and believe me,there are many.

    • Andrew

      Zoe Quinn is involved with Robin Arnott, who selected her as a Night Games winner, which came with a cash prize

  • dodoking
    • TheEvenHand

      I love that article. I hope everyone gives her a positive comment for stepping forward, and shining light on what’s going on from the inside. I hope she stays in the industry.

    • youngexecutive

      Why?

      She’s correct about Zoe, but the writer’s ideology is unbearable.

      Women aren’t morally superior to men and the acceptance of female promiscuity does not liberate men…it liberates women who are free to follow their hypergamous instincts and their sexually entitled status in the 1st world. There is a reason feminist is so pro promiscuity and it’s not because it helps men.

  • dodoking
    • TheEvenHand

      I love that article. I hope everyone gives her a positive comment for stepping forward, and shining light on what’s going on from the inside. I hope she stays in the industry.

    • youngexecutive

      Why?

      She’s correct about Zoe, but the writer’s ideology is unbearable.

      Women aren’t morally superior to men and the acceptance of female promiscuity does not liberate men…it liberates women who are free to follow their hypergamous instincts and their sexually entitled status in the 1st world. There is a reason feminist is so pro promiscuity and it’s not because it helps men.

  • Kingdo Goodbomber

    “Nothing good is to come of this.”

    Author is wrong.

    Vivian James was born.

    Money is being raised to donate towards chemo butthurt and should they meet their goal the female creator will get 8% of the profits.

    https://33.media.tumblr.com/f0f606151f5f705ad0fcd34275cd233b/tumblr_naqfndHYuM1rxo0v5o1_1280.jpg

    https://31.media.tumblr.com/ed556d02ab4fbe6268d3ad6a9c7ae2ce/tumblr_nas0342oCG1r22kk6o1_1280.png

    What have the social justice whiners created besides bile?

  • Kingdo Goodbomber

    “Nothing good is to come of this.”

    Author is wrong.

    Vivian James was born.

    Money is being raised to donate towards chemo butthurt and should they meet their goal the female creator will get 8% of the profits.

    https://33.media.tumblr.com/f0f606151f5f705ad0fcd34275cd233b/tumblr_naqfndHYuM1rxo0v5o1_1280.jpg

    https://31.media.tumblr.com/ed556d02ab4fbe6268d3ad6a9c7ae2ce/tumblr_nas0342oCG1r22kk6o1_1280.png

    What have the social justice whiners created besides bile?

  • Juhata

    What distresses me most of this situation is that the ‘SJW’s defending Quinn from the ‘angry internet nerds’ quickly resort to insulting and name calling anyone who dares to even voice an opinion different than theirs. Over the past three days (THREE DAYS!), I have been constantly hearing people calling their fellow gamers who try to relay their point across ‘nerds’, ‘virgins’, ‘losers’, ‘pathetic no lifes’, the favorite of everyone, ‘misogynists’ and a new one, ‘terrorists’. Seriously? Now people voicing their opinion about an issue that has been proven time and again are now terrorists that send bomb threats to airports? Do you guys even think about what you are denouncing everyone who presents a counter-argument? And the worst thing is that this comes not only from the people who support Quinn, but from other people related to video games in a more serious manner (How’s it going, Cliffy B. and Patricia Hernandez? Are you enjoying calling your fellow gamers ‘nerds’, out of all things? Is it oh so gratifying to belittle the people who support your industry and who have their passion set into attempting to making it better?)

    I am tired of people from both sides resorting to name calling and insulting themselves over petty issues for the past times, but this time it is simply unacceptable. Even with people attempting to debate without resorting to shameless name-calling and calling each other ‘sluts’ or ‘virgins’ or ‘misogynists’ or even fucking ‘terrorists’. This attempt to shame people and to stop them from trying to communicate is bullying and a form of oppression. I can’t believe that the people who, out of all things, fight for ‘social justice’, JUSTICE, and that promote such a thing have to downgrade themselves to silence the attempt to discuss with the magic word that instantly gets other people on your side. I get that some people from 4chan or reddit or whatever internet site might be idiots and resort to spamming ‘lol slut’ and similar shit on twitter. Those people are in the wrong too. Yet to dismiss ANY who dares to share their point of view in such a way?

    I don’t have much to say regarding the Quinn controversy at the moment because, honestly, I am not good with arguments and most of what I hear might or might not be true, but the hypocrisy surrounding this whole thing simply can’t be ignored. Now, the biggest controversy that might affect all of the gaming journalism is being fought by both hypocrites and people who quickly resort to name calling and insulting each other until the other side backs away and the other goes back to gloating over how better they are over the ‘big bad internet scum’. Is this what we want for people to take gaming seriously?

    • Ren

      Oh Cliffy B.. You never cease to surprise me with how much you stick your nose in things.

    • Jon Stone

      “I am tired of people from both sides resorting to name calling and insulting themselves over petty issues for the past times, but this time it is simply unacceptable.”

      The gulf between people’s understanding of what is happening in gaming is vast though. I’ve only really caught up on some of the issues in the past few days but am rapidly forming the conclusion that there is an almost entirely-US-based cultishness to this fury over ‘SJWs’. Pretty much anyone who uses the term ‘SJW’ seems to be a conspiracy theorist who believes a select band of feminists and activists have infiltrated all of gaming and are corrupting it – something which there is zero evidence of.

      • JimW

        Go to KotakuInAction on reddit to see all of the evidence. It won’t be what evidence you’re attempting to find perhaps, as it’s evidence proving that Zoe Quinn did in fact use journalists to her direct benefit and to get money directly given to her, so if that’s what you’re looking for then that’s perfect.

      • Gregg Braddoch

        “Pretty much anyone who uses the term ‘SJW’ seems to be a conspiracy theorist who believes a select band of feminists and activists have infiltrated all of gaming and are corrupting it – something which there is zero evidence of.”

        The irony of what you said in response to the above comment is too funny not to comment on:

        You are dismissing anyone complaining about those supporting Quinn by calling them SJWs as conspiracy theorists, which is exactly what Juhahta was pointing out. You dismiss people’s opinions if they disagree, and you to this by name-calling.

  • Juhata

    What distresses me most of this situation is that the ‘SJW’s defending Quinn from the ‘angry internet nerds’ quickly resort to insulting and name calling anyone who dares to even voice an opinion different than theirs. Over the past three days (THREE DAYS!), I have been constantly hearing people calling their fellow gamers who try to relay their point across ‘nerds’, ‘virgins’, ‘losers’, ‘pathetic no lifes’, the favorite of everyone, ‘misogynists’ and a new one, ‘terrorists’. Seriously? Now people voicing their opinion about an issue that has been proven time and again are now terrorists that send bomb threats to airports? Do you guys even think about what you are denouncing everyone who presents a counter-argument? And the worst thing is that this comes not only from the people who support Quinn, but from other people related to video games in a more serious manner (How’s it going, Cliffy B. and Patricia Hernandez? Are you enjoying calling your fellow gamers ‘nerds’, out of all things? Is it oh so gratifying to belittle the people who support your industry and who have their passion set into attempting to making it better?)

    I am tired of people from both sides resorting to name calling and insulting themselves over petty issues for the past times, but this time it is simply unacceptable. Even with people attempting to debate without resorting to shameless name-calling and calling each other ‘sluts’ or ‘virgins’ or ‘misogynists’ or even fucking ‘terrorists’. This attempt to shame people and to stop them from trying to communicate is bullying and a form of oppression. I can’t believe that the people who, out of all things, fight for ‘social justice’, JUSTICE, and that promote such a thing have to downgrade themselves to silence the attempt to discuss with the magic word that instantly gets other people on your side. I get that some people from 4chan or reddit or whatever internet site might be idiots and resort to spamming ‘lol slut’ and similar shit on twitter. Those people are in the wrong too. Yet to dismiss ANY who dares to share their point of view in such a way?

    I don’t have much to say regarding the Quinn controversy at the moment because, honestly, I am not good with arguments and most of what I hear might or might not be true, but the hypocrisy surrounding this whole thing simply can’t be ignored. Now, the biggest controversy that might affect all of the gaming journalism is being fought by both hypocrites and people who quickly resort to name calling and insulting each other until the other side backs away and the other goes back to gloating over how better they are over the ‘big bad internet scum’. Is this what we want for people to take gaming seriously?

    • Ren

      Oh Cliffy B.. You never cease to surprise me with how much you stick your nose in things.

    • Jon Stone

      “I am tired of people from both sides resorting to name calling and insulting themselves over petty issues for the past times, but this time it is simply unacceptable.”

      The gulf between people’s understanding of what is happening in gaming is vast though. I’ve only really caught up on some of the issues in the past few days but am rapidly forming the conclusion that there is an almost entirely-US-based cultishness to this fury over ‘SJWs’. Pretty much anyone who uses the term ‘SJW’ seems to be a conspiracy theorist who believes a select band of feminists and activists have infiltrated all of gaming and are corrupting it – something which there is zero evidence of.

      • JimW

        Go to KotakuInAction on reddit to see all of the evidence. It won’t be what evidence you’re attempting to find perhaps, as it’s evidence proving that Zoe Quinn did in fact use journalists to her direct benefit and to get money directly given to her, so if that’s what you’re looking for then that’s perfect.

      • Gregg Braddoch

        “Pretty much anyone who uses the term ‘SJW’ seems to be a conspiracy theorist who believes a select band of feminists and activists have infiltrated all of gaming and are corrupting it – something which there is zero evidence of.”

        The irony of what you said in response to the above comment is too funny not to comment on:

        You are dismissing anyone complaining about those supporting Quinn by calling them SJWs as conspiracy theorists, which is exactly what Juhahta was pointing out. You dismiss people’s opinions if they disagree, and you to this by name-calling.

  • Excellent article.

  • Excellent article.

  • Michieie

    Great article, but I have to disagree with something you said: this is the kind of battle where it won’t stop unless omeone falls, despite the number of casualties. 4chan might not be exactly what it used to, but it fucking never gives up until they get what they want; and they, no, WE want for feminists and SJW to get away from vidya, for honest journos to write honest opinions about their games, to stop the incestuos cryonism in vidya journalism.

    This won’t stop until someone falls; until politically correct agendas, feminism and SJW get the fuck out of our hobby and get exposed as the disgustic hypocritical manipulative psycopaths they actually are.

    • Jon Stone

      “… until politically correct agendas, feminism and SJW get the fuck out of our hobby and get exposed as the disgustic hypocritical manipulative psycopaths they actually are.”

      Never going to happen. Because it’s not ‘your’ hobby. It’s not the hobby of petulant, over-entitled, immature perma-children who’ve been cultishly brainwashed into believing that feminists are out to steal their toys. You will die still confused and furious as to why there are so many of these dreaded ‘SJWs’ around, blind to the reality that the majority of your hated enemies are just normal people trying to make the world a little nicer for everyone.

      • Glenn McBride

        Normal people trying to make the world a little nicer for everyone? I wonder who exactly will determine what qualifies as “nicer”. Here is a hint: “In the new Reich, no more animal cruelty will be allowed.” — Adolph Hitler, 1933.

        • Brian Crocker

          Oh my god, seriously? Hyperbole much?

          • Jon Stone

            When this lot are laid out on their death beds, I don’t know which emotion will win out: fury that the dreaded SRAs and feminists still exist and are still ‘ruining’ games for them, or confusion as to why that the apocalypse hasn’t happened yet.

          • Glenn McBride

            Yet here you remain.

          • Glenn McBride

            So what was the revenue for video games for 2013? Somewhere around 93 billion? Billion, with a B. Hyperbole indeed!

          • Brian Crocker

            No, comparing Zoe and SJW to Hitler, that was fucking hyperbole worthy of the word.
            How much of that was owned by DQ? Less than a million. If you want the REAL spot where journalism and development get in bed and do really shitty things, go after the big boys. All this about Zoe and her journalist bang buddies is a frothing tempest in a pisspot.

      • ruleofthebrave

        “just normal people trying to make the world a little nicer for everyone” lol

      • youngexecutive

        Hey Jonny boy,

        You know how you can make the world a little nicer for everyone?

        Shut up.

        • Jon Stone

          Actually, that’s my plan now – leave you lot to stew in your little paranoid misogynistic cesspit, and return to the sane world where women playing and making video games is a thing we’re all happy about.

          In fact, after spending some of last evening and this morning on these threads, I’m going to need a long detox.

          • youngexecutive

            Don’t get all butthurt and start flinging insults that make zero sense. ZOE’s horrible actions make her hateable… and if you had any integrity you would accept that, but instead you spew rhetoric cause you need to protect an “ally” and the “cause”. By her own logic Zoe is a rapist… and you’re on her side????

            You need more than a long detox.

          • Sartharina

            Where the heck are you getting that he’s on her side?

          • youngexecutive

            Where the heck are you getting that he’s not on her side?

      • TriedBy12

        If they were trying to make the world a nicer place, they would generally try to have conversations that don’t devolve into petty name calling (I acknowledge that it happens on both sides) which frankly does nothing but continue the cycle of mistrust and unease felt by all.

      • Red Lagoon

        Are we name-calling now again? Wow you are so mature! Please tell me more about ethics and high morals, I’m listening… This SJW are out there because they like to ruin other peoples interests and they reflect ignorance, and people like Zoe are smart enough to know how to profit from this ignorance (the white knights)!

        • Jon Stone

          I’m ignoring most of this utter infantile bollocks now but thought I’d just pop back for a few seconds to chuckle at this:

          “… because they like to ruin other peoples interests and they reflect ignorance.”

          Dry your tears and buy yourself a lollipop. It’ll make everything better.

          • Red Lagoon

            lol? lmao; I was just showing how SJW and WhiteKnights (same thing) like you insult everyone who doesn’t agree with them (you would know if you would have read the article)! Still it’s not like I was expecting a mature answer for someone who calls people “petulant, over-entitled, immature perma-children who’ve been cultishly brainwashed…”

      • Michieie

        You really need some redpills if you think radical liberalists like SJWs and feminists that support them are going to make things better. They have far more influence than you’d think and fortunately it’s all getting out: censorship, discrimination, cryonism. Yes, they’re “normal” people trying to make the world “better” for everyone (read: everyone who isn’t white or male).

        They might be toys, but they’re toys we used to enjoy and use to forget about shit that stressed us. now we can’t really play without some shitty “progressive” agenda being pushed down our throats, and when we’re not we have sites like Kotaku saying shit like “this game looks fun but it’s sexist because females have big boobs and you’re a scumbag if you like it”. Feminists and SJWs crawling and controling vidya are the reason people go to /v/: they still love videogames but they’re so fucking done with all this shit on top of things like DMC and DLC: they like them and hate them for being derranged into this.

        When you see the people they try to “protect” so much revolt and outright say they hate them you need to reevaluate what you’re saying and who you’re supporting. There’s plenty of LGBT and women against people like Zoe and Anita, and SJWs betas like you won’t be able to say anything against them because they’re the card you love to use to shut people up when they disagree with your agenda (SHUT UP YOU CIS SCUM GO DIE YOU PRIVILEGED WHITE TRASH).

      • dodoking

        I fucking see everywhere there is zoe quinn and DEFENDING HER every time and everytime you get fucking owned fuck off people this is SJW and probably PR for zoe quinn

  • Michieie

    Great article, but I have to disagree with something you said: this is the kind of battle where it won’t stop unless omeone falls, despite the number of casualties. 4chan might not be exactly what it used to, but it fucking never gives up until they get what they want; and they, no, WE want for feminists and SJW to get away from vidya, for honest journos to write honest opinions about their games, to stop the incestuos cryonism in vidya journalism.

    This won’t stop until someone falls; until politically correct agendas, feminism and SJW get the fuck out of our hobby and get exposed as the disgustic hypocritical manipulative psycopaths they actually are.

    • Jon Stone

      “… until politically correct agendas, feminism and SJW get the fuck out of our hobby and get exposed as the disgustic hypocritical manipulative psycopaths they actually are.”

      Never going to happen. Because it’s not ‘your’ hobby. It’s not the hobby of petulant, over-entitled, immature perma-children who’ve been cultishly brainwashed into believing that feminists are out to steal their toys. You will die still confused and furious as to why there are so many of these dreaded ‘SJWs’ around, blind to the reality that the majority of your hated enemies are just normal people trying to make the world a little nicer for everyone.

      • Glenn McBride

        Normal people trying to make the world a little nicer for everyone? I wonder who exactly will determine what qualifies as “nicer”. Here is a hint: “In the new Reich, no more animal cruelty will be allowed.” — Adolph Hitler, 1933.

        • Brian Crocker

          Oh my god, seriously? Hyperbole much?

          • Jon Stone

            When this lot are laid out on their death beds, I don’t know which emotion will win out: fury that the dreaded SRAs and feminists still exist and are still ‘ruining’ games for them, or confusion as to why that the apocalypse hasn’t happened yet.

          • Glenn McBride

            Yet here you remain.

          • Glenn McBride

            So what was the revenue for video games for 2013? Somewhere around 93 billion? Billion, with a B. Hyperbole indeed!

          • Brian Crocker

            No, comparing Zoe and SJW to Hitler, that was fucking hyperbole worthy of the word.
            How much of that was owned by DQ? Less than a million. If you want the REAL spot where journalism and development get in bed and do really shitty things, go after the big boys. All this about Zoe and her journalist bang buddies is a frothing tempest in a pisspot.

      • ruleofthebrave

        “just normal people trying to make the world a little nicer for everyone” lol

      • youngexecutive

        Hey Jonny boy,

        You know how you can make the world a little nicer for everyone?

        Shut up.

        • Jon Stone

          Actually, that’s my plan now – leave you lot to stew in your little paranoid misogynistic cesspit, and return to the sane world where women playing and making video games is a thing we’re all happy about.

          In fact, after spending some of last evening and this morning on these threads, I’m going to need a long detox.

          • youngexecutive

            Don’t get all butthurt and start flinging insults that make zero sense. ZOE’s horrible actions make her hateable… and if you had any integrity you would accept that, but instead you spew rhetoric cause you need to protect an “ally” and the “cause”. By her own logic Zoe is a rapist… and you’re on her side????

            You need more than a long detox.

          • Sartharina

            Where the heck are you getting that he’s on her side?

          • youngexecutive

            Where the heck are you getting that he’s not on her side?

      • TriedBy12

        If they were trying to make the world a nicer place, they would generally try to have conversations that don’t devolve into petty name calling (I acknowledge that it happens on both sides) which frankly does nothing but continue the cycle of mistrust and unease felt by all.

      • Red Lagoon

        Are we name-calling now again? Wow you are so mature! Please tell me more about ethics and high morals, I’m listening… This SJW are out there because they like to ruin other peoples interests and they reflect ignorance, and people like Zoe are smart enough to know how to profit from this ignorance (the white knights)!

        • Jon Stone

          I’m ignoring most of this utter infantile bollocks now but thought I’d just pop back for a few seconds to chuckle at this:

          “… because they like to ruin other peoples interests and they reflect ignorance.”

          Dry your tears and buy yourself a lollipop. It’ll make everything better.

          • Red Lagoon

            lol? lmao; I was just showing how SJW and WhiteKnights (same thing) like you insult everyone who doesn’t agree with them (you would know if you would have read the article)! Still it’s not like I was expecting a mature answer for someone who calls people “petulant, over-entitled, immature perma-children who’ve been cultishly brainwashed…”

      • Michieie

        You really need some redpills if you think radical liberalists like SJWs and feminists that support them are going to make things better. They have far more influence than you’d think and fortunately it’s all getting out: censorship, discrimination, cryonism. Yes, they’re “normal” people trying to make the world “better” for everyone (read: everyone who isn’t white or male).

        They might be toys, but they’re toys we used to enjoy and use to forget about shit that stressed us. now we can’t really play without some shitty “progressive” agenda being pushed down our throats, and when we’re not we have sites like Kotaku saying shit like “this game looks fun but it’s sexist because females have big boobs and you’re a scumbag if you like it”. Feminists and SJWs crawling and controling vidya are the reason people go to /v/: they still love videogames but they’re so fucking done with all this shit on top of things like DMC and DLC: they like them and hate them for being derranged into this.

        When you see the people they try to “protect” so much revolt and outright say they hate them you need to reevaluate what you’re saying and who you’re supporting. There’s plenty of LGBT and women against people like Zoe and Anita, and SJWs betas like you won’t be able to say anything against them because they’re the card you love to use to shut people up when they disagree with your agenda (SHUT UP YOU CIS SCUM GO DIE YOU PRIVILEGED WHITE TRASH).

      • dodoking

        I fucking see everywhere there is zoe quinn and DEFENDING HER every time and everytime you get fucking owned fuck off people this is SJW and probably PR for zoe quinn

  • Quixote

    This is a gigantic farce. Imagine if these jokers were in a legitimate field. Imagine if Roger Ebert posted a picture on Twitter of him at a bar with Spielburg, flipping off the camera. He’d never work in film again. The truth is that these “journalists” need to be forced out of the video game industry and never allowed to work in the field again as they have been proven to be disgustingly corrupt, Kotaku in particular is utterly corrupt from top to bottom.

    What’s more insulting is that the other “journalists” are saying there’s “no evidence” and that it’s all “speculation” when all the evidence is widely available and is mostly in the form of these people admitting these things themselves on a public stage because they didn’t think there’d be any blowback and that there was nothing wrong with what they were doing. There can be no truce with corrupt people who use activism as a shield for their nepotism and petty greed, there can be no tolerance for “journalists” who deflect criticism with ad hominem attacks, there can be no respect for cronyism and there can be only utter disdain towards those who censor the truth.

    • Brian Crocker

      I assume you are also calling for the firing of every journalist at IGN and Gamespot who have participated in massive payola campaigns in conjunction with EA, Ubisoft, Activision, etc?

      • Glenn McBride

        If the shoe fits…

      • bob

        I know I am.

      • youngexecutive

        I surely hope not. Zoe is in a special class… Righteous SJW’s who act so immorally are akin to priests that do wrong. Both deserve harsher punishments and more outrage than the average “sinner”.

        • Brian Crocker

          Right. So an incident where no actual, REAL journalistic breach has occured (where the only thing Nathan did is mention DQ for ONE LINE in an article about FIFTY other games getting greenlit that day, and then report on a crashed and burned gamejam show that had hundreds of thousands poured into it, which literally every other gaming or gaming adjacent news outlet also reported on)is worse than the endless very real shit that is happening on IGN and Gamespot – where they literally whore out their entire website to AAA devs, produce endless fluff pieces and favorable reviews for actual money (ever see an IGN or Gamespot reviewer critical of a game that deserved to be criticized (*coughKaneandLynch2cough*) after one of those paid for splash campaigns? One guy did. Wasn’t he fired?). Some girl sleeping with a few guys is more important than that? Get your priorities straight, man.

          • TerribleName

            You’re lying to yourself if you think its cool because Grayson himself didn’t write the article. Depression Quest is a shit tier choose your own adventure book that could have been knocked out in a week or two by a semi-competent writer and a college comp sci major, yet it got a lot of coverage despite that and managed to get railroaded through Steam greenlight. Zoe used her influence with her group of friends to get that publicity, and riding Grayson’s dick was the price of admission into that group. He may not have written any articles, but do you honestly believe he didn’t ask his journalism buddies to write a few pieces on her and to take her side when she claimed harrassment from wizardchan? They all go out drinking together and know each other on a face to face basis, and thats the issue here. Games journalists are such a tight knit group where everyone knows everyone that if you fuck the right people you get an open invitation *everywhere* and suddenly everyone will shield you, not just the dick you’re touching today.

          • Brian Crocker

            Nathan wrote the article. The point is, for everyone saying she “fucked guys for promotion” her game is mentioned IN ONE LINE in the article, and it’s not ABOUT her, it’s an article about FIFTY games getting greenlit. If that’s an example of “tit-for-tat” “I fuck you and you give me promotion” it’s the worst example in the world.
            But again, noone mentions or gets angry about all that that goes on between the big AAA devs and the big gaming websites every day of every year. Noone gets angry about any of that, it’s this chick that slept with some dudes, then got paranoid.

          • TerribleName

            Come on man. You have to give Grayson some credit for not being a complete moron and writing a gushing piece about his latest piece of ass. The fact remains that for a small time virtual nobody whose claim to fame is a chose your own adventure book, Zoe Quinn got a *lot* of publicity in the gaming press, from the wizardchan thing to the abortive game show to this. She moves in the right circles and knows the right people, and she got into those circles in unsavory ways. And Zoe’s sex life aside, the fact that those incestuous circles exist at all is the heart of the problem. One well connected hack can get disproportionate coverage and media protection.

            And the reason why *this* betrayal stings more than the AAA devs buying a 10/10 review is that by this point we’ve just come to expect it. OF COURSE Kotaku sells out on the big ticket items. Gotta pay the bills somehow, right? But I think a lot of us thought they might still have some integrity on the small things where giant stacks of cash weren’t at stake. Finding out they are completely corrupt about everything stings.

          • Brian Crocker

            But that’s the thing – that one line is being used as an example that all game journalism is horrible, and again – how? It’s ONE LINE. It’s the worst example of tit-for-tat ever.
            There’s no example of a lack of integrity – there are two articles, none of which are ABOUT Zoe. If he wrote a bunch of fluff pieces about her and her games, there’d be something there. If he and the others flooded game sites with “10/10 must buy” reviews of DQ and any of her other stuff, then you’d have something.
            EVERY game site covered the Expensive Game Jam from Hell. And Depression Quest got a modicum of press and attention, but it didn’t even get greenlit until over a YEAR later. And again – when did Greenlight become this paragon gateway for legitimate games all of a sudden?

          • TerribleName

            Its not one line. Thats what you dont get, and Im starting to think youre being stupid on purpose. This wasnt some grocery store transaction here. Grayson didnt write one line in exchange for one sex from Zoe. Zoe got herself into a group of game journalists who all knew each other and made herself at home through sex, partying, and whatever else. She made friends with the people who were supposed to be covering her. Grayson and company were just the dudes she fucked while getting in close with that group of friends. It was those friends who gave Zoe everything she needed. She didn’t trade sex for reviews directly. Shit, that would almost be better because at least then we would know how much publicity costs. One blowjob for one mention, clean. But of course thats the kind of shit a highschooler would believe.

            Where the journalistic corruption comes in is that Zoe, a game developer, got in close with a bunch of games journalists, who cover game developers. And from that she started getting way more coverage than someone who writes an indie text adventure in 2013 warrants. Not from Grayson, but from that circle of friends and journalists. When the thing with wizardchan happened the game sites were quick to come to her defense and point out how she was being harassed. When that stupid indie game tv show was happening she somehow got invited to be on it. And now the major sites are refusing to post anything even remotely bad about Zoe. Its not because she traded twenty dick tugs to Grayson for no one to say mean things about her, but because she knows people at almost every outlet. No one will report on her objectively because she is in their circle of friends, or their friends friends. And she is in that circle of friends in part because she fucked a lot of them.

            This is where the manipulation and loss of integrity comes into play. Zoey Quinn didn’t trade five minutes of dick sucking for a good review. Thats stupid. If thats what you Im implying you’re pretty dumb. Zoey Quinn wormed her way into a close knit group of games journalists who gave her disproportionate amounts of coverage and came to her defense in ways not consistent with being a good journalist. Those journalists are compromised. They can’t objectively report on her. But everyone is hung up on GRAYSON DIDNT EVEN WRITE A REVIEW, HURR DURR and can’t see that I guess.

          • Brian Crocker

            The indie games scene is an odd thing – it’s unsurprising the journos get more personal with the devs – usually it’s just a handful of people – or one or two – making this small passion project. They want coverage, so they give you access and interviews, etc etc. They are “the little guy” so it’s hard not to be positive about it all. You see this small outfit at every expo and con, finally get its game released and do well, and you feel good.
            With the big guys, you only get suits and PR and marketing, and maybe if you are lucky a dev head, but you’re very far removed from the process, and it’s all glitz and flash and sizzle.
            So yeah, it’s not surprising indie devs and indie journalists have a cozy relationship.

          • TerribleName

            Its not surprising, but its also not right. You can’t objectively cover someone you’re friends with, its called a conflict of interest. Zoe only banged a handful of dudes, but she knew a lot more. Why do you think the major sites censored and suppressed the story for so long? Why do you think 90% of the stories that have run are overwhelmingly sympathetic to Zoe and call anyone who criticizes her a misogynist neckbeard loser? Zoe has friends who look out for her. Those friends have friends. They run major gaming sites it turns out.

            And of course some mouth breathers out there actually are misogynist neckbeard losers who just hate women, which means everyone else tends to *believe* those other stories that Zoe is a perfect angel because is misogynist neckbeard losers hate you, you must be doing something right, right? Don’t bother looking any harder.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Depression Quest is a shit tier choose your own adventure book that could have been knocked out in a week or two by a semi-competent writer and a college comp sci major”

            I agree with the sentiment behind your comment, but I seriously could have made this game in high school, as could many other real game developers.

          • youngexecutive

            No you get your priorities straight….
            See everyone know corporations are evil, but when you blanket yourself in white, pretend to be part ofa community, fighting for truth and justice and fidleity… and then turn out to be a wolf in sheeps clothing and a sleazy hypocrite… people get real pissed.

            But you go on thinking this is about “some girl sleeping with a few guys”

  • Quixote

    This is a gigantic farce. Imagine if these jokers were in a legitimate field. Imagine if Roger Ebert posted a picture on Twitter of him at a bar with Spielburg, flipping off the camera. He’d never work in film again. The truth is that these “journalists” need to be forced out of the video game industry and never allowed to work in the field again as they have been proven to be disgustingly corrupt, Kotaku in particular is utterly corrupt from top to bottom.

    What’s more insulting is that the other “journalists” are saying there’s “no evidence” and that it’s all “speculation” when all the evidence is widely available and is mostly in the form of these people admitting these things themselves on a public stage because they didn’t think there’d be any blowback and that there was nothing wrong with what they were doing. There can be no truce with corrupt people who use activism as a shield for their nepotism and petty greed, there can be no tolerance for “journalists” who deflect criticism with ad hominem attacks, there can be no respect for cronyism and there can be only utter disdain towards those who censor the truth.

    • Brian Crocker

      I assume you are also calling for the firing of every journalist at IGN and Gamespot who have participated in massive payola campaigns in conjunction with EA, Ubisoft, Activision, etc?

      • Glenn McBride

        If the shoe fits…

      • bob

        I know I am.

      • youngexecutive

        I surely hope not. Zoe is in a special class… Righteous SJW’s who act so immorally are akin to priests that do wrong. Both deserve harsher punishments and more outrage than the average “sinner”.

        • Brian Crocker

          Right. So an incident where no actual, REAL journalistic breach has occured (where the only thing Nathan did is mention DQ for ONE LINE in an article about FIFTY other games getting greenlit that day, and then report on a crashed and burned gamejam show that had hundreds of thousands poured into it, which literally every other gaming or gaming adjacent news outlet also reported on)is worse than the endless very real shit that is happening on IGN and Gamespot – where they literally whore out their entire website to AAA devs, produce endless fluff pieces and favorable reviews for actual money (ever see an IGN or Gamespot reviewer critical of a game that deserved to be criticized (*coughKaneandLynch2cough*) after one of those paid for splash campaigns? One guy did. Wasn’t he fired?). Some girl sleeping with a few guys is more important than that? Get your priorities straight, man.

          • TerribleName

            You’re lying to yourself if you think its cool because Grayson himself didn’t write the article. Depression Quest is a shit tier choose your own adventure book that could have been knocked out in a week or two by a semi-competent writer and a college comp sci major, yet it got a lot of coverage despite that and managed to get railroaded through Steam greenlight. Zoe used her influence with her group of friends to get that publicity, and riding Grayson’s dick was the price of admission into that group. He may not have written any articles, but do you honestly believe he didn’t ask his journalism buddies to write a few pieces on her and to take her side when she claimed harrassment from wizardchan? They all go out drinking together and know each other on a face to face basis, and thats the issue here. Games journalists are such a tight knit group where everyone knows everyone that if you fuck the right people you get an open invitation *everywhere* and suddenly everyone will shield you, not just the dick you’re touching today.

          • Brian Crocker

            Nathan wrote the article. The point is, for everyone saying she “fucked guys for promotion” her game is mentioned IN ONE LINE in the article, and it’s not ABOUT her, it’s an article about FIFTY games getting greenlit. If that’s an example of “tit-for-tat” “I fuck you and you give me promotion” it’s the worst example in the world.
            But again, noone mentions or gets angry about all that that goes on between the big AAA devs and the big gaming websites every day of every year. Noone gets angry about any of that, it’s this chick that slept with some dudes, then got paranoid.

          • TerribleName

            Come on man. You have to give Grayson some credit for not being a complete moron and writing a gushing piece about his latest piece of ass. The fact remains that for a small time virtual nobody whose claim to fame is a chose your own adventure book, Zoe Quinn got a *lot* of publicity in the gaming press, from the wizardchan thing to the abortive game show to this. She moves in the right circles and knows the right people, and she got into those circles in unsavory ways. And Zoe’s sex life aside, the fact that those incestuous circles exist at all is the heart of the problem. One well connected hack can get disproportionate coverage and media protection.

            And the reason why *this* betrayal stings more than the AAA devs buying a 10/10 review is that by this point we’ve just come to expect it. OF COURSE Kotaku sells out on the big ticket items. Gotta pay the bills somehow, right? But I think a lot of us thought they might still have some integrity on the small things where giant stacks of cash weren’t at stake. Finding out they are completely corrupt about everything stings.

          • Brian Crocker

            But that’s the thing – that one line is being used as an example that all game journalism is horrible, and again – how? It’s ONE LINE. It’s the worst example of tit-for-tat ever.
            There’s no example of a lack of integrity – there are two articles, none of which are ABOUT Zoe. If he wrote a bunch of fluff pieces about her and her games, there’d be something there. If he and the others flooded game sites with “10/10 must buy” reviews of DQ and any of her other stuff, then you’d have something.
            EVERY game site covered the Expensive Game Jam from Hell. And Depression Quest got a modicum of press and attention, but it didn’t even get greenlit until over a YEAR later. And again – when did Greenlight become this paragon gateway for legitimate games all of a sudden?

          • TerribleName

            Its not one line. Thats what you dont get, and Im starting to think youre being stupid on purpose. This wasnt some grocery store transaction here. Grayson didnt write one line in exchange for one sex from Zoe. Zoe got herself into a group of game journalists who all knew each other and made herself at home through sex, partying, and whatever else. She made friends with the people who were supposed to be covering her. Grayson and company were just the dudes she fucked while getting in close with that group of friends. It was those friends who gave Zoe everything she needed. She didn’t trade sex for reviews directly. Shit, that would almost be better because at least then we would know how much publicity costs. One blowjob for one mention, clean. But of course thats the kind of shit a highschooler would believe.

            Where the journalistic corruption comes in is that Zoe, a game developer, got in close with a bunch of games journalists, who cover game developers. And from that she started getting way more coverage than someone who writes an indie text adventure in 2013 warrants. Not from Grayson, but from that circle of friends and journalists. When the thing with wizardchan happened the game sites were quick to come to her defense and point out how she was being harassed. When that stupid indie game tv show was happening she somehow got invited to be on it. And now the major sites are refusing to post anything even remotely bad about Zoe. Its not because she traded twenty dick tugs to Grayson for no one to say mean things about her, but because she knows people at almost every outlet. No one will report on her objectively because she is in their circle of friends, or their friends friends. And she is in that circle of friends in part because she fucked a lot of them.

            This is where the manipulation and loss of integrity comes into play. Zoey Quinn didn’t trade five minutes of dick sucking for a good review. Thats stupid. If thats what you Im implying you’re pretty dumb. Zoey Quinn wormed her way into a close knit group of games journalists who gave her disproportionate amounts of coverage and came to her defense in ways not consistent with being a good journalist. Those journalists are compromised. They can’t objectively report on her. But everyone is hung up on GRAYSON DIDNT EVEN WRITE A REVIEW, HURR DURR and can’t see that I guess.

          • Brian Crocker

            The indie games scene is an odd thing – it’s unsurprising the journos get more personal with the devs – usually it’s just a handful of people – or one or two – making this small passion project. They want coverage, so they give you access and interviews, etc etc. They are “the little guy” so it’s hard not to be positive about it all. You see this small outfit at every expo and con, finally get its game released and do well, and you feel good.
            With the big guys, you only get suits and PR and marketing, and maybe if you are lucky a dev head, but you’re very far removed from the process, and it’s all glitz and flash and sizzle.
            So yeah, it’s not surprising indie devs and indie journalists have a cozy relationship.

          • TerribleName

            Its not surprising, but its also not right. You can’t objectively cover someone you’re friends with, its called a conflict of interest. Zoe only banged a handful of dudes, but she knew a lot more. Why do you think the major sites censored and suppressed the story for so long? Why do you think 90% of the stories that have run are overwhelmingly sympathetic to Zoe and call anyone who criticizes her a misogynist neckbeard loser? Zoe has friends who look out for her. Those friends have friends. They run major gaming sites it turns out.

            And of course some mouth breathers out there actually are misogynist neckbeard losers who just hate women, which means everyone else tends to *believe* those other stories that Zoe is a perfect angel because is misogynist neckbeard losers hate you, you must be doing something right, right? Don’t bother looking any harder.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Depression Quest is a shit tier choose your own adventure book that could have been knocked out in a week or two by a semi-competent writer and a college comp sci major”

            I agree with the sentiment behind your comment, but I seriously could have made this game in high school, as could many other real game developers.

          • youngexecutive

            No you get your priorities straight….
            See everyone know corporations are evil, but when you blanket yourself in white, pretend to be part ofa community, fighting for truth and justice and fidleity… and then turn out to be a wolf in sheeps clothing and a sleazy hypocrite… people get real pissed.

            But you go on thinking this is about “some girl sleeping with a few guys”

  • idiots and faggot hackers

    You people are fukcing idiots. This is how media works its not just the gaming industry its everything primetime news everything and everyone has a price. SO fucking what if some bitch slept around why they fuck does that even matter? This could be the stupidest fucking shit i have ever heard. THIS IS HOW THE MEDIA WORKS TO TRY AND CHANGE IT YOU WOULD HAVE TO CHANGE THE WHOLE FUCKING SYSTEM. GROW UP THERE ARE FAR MORE IMPORTANT SHIT TO WORRY ABOUT.

    • asdf

      i wouldnt mind changing the whole system

      change is a part of growing up

    • ruleofthebrave

      I guess we should ignore the Israeli conflict, the Donald Sterling scandal, and Ferguson because…hey, that’s how the world works. Changing anything would mean changing the whole fucking system.

    • youngexecutive

      Can’t see the forest cause of the trees can you? This IS a big issue!

    • TriedBy12

      So basically you’re solution is to just accept that these gaming “journalists” are trustworthy enough to listen to on the games they review regardless of the fact that the game dev fucked his for a good review and rating. You sir are all that is wrong with this planet. Please rectify that issue.

  • idiots and faggot hackers

    You people are fukcing idiots. This is how media works its not just the gaming industry its everything primetime news everything and everyone has a price. SO fucking what if some bitch slept around why they fuck does that even matter? This could be the stupidest fucking shit i have ever heard. THIS IS HOW THE MEDIA WORKS TO TRY AND CHANGE IT YOU WOULD HAVE TO CHANGE THE WHOLE FUCKING SYSTEM. GROW UP THERE ARE FAR MORE IMPORTANT SHIT TO WORRY ABOUT.

    • asdf

      i wouldnt mind changing the whole system

      change is a part of growing up

    • Stephen Carnaggio

      So if everyone jumped off a bridge, would you? Just because a way of doing things is popular doesn’t mean its right.

    • ruleofthebrave

      I guess we should ignore the Israeli conflict, the Donald Sterling scandal, and Ferguson because…hey, that’s how the world works. Changing anything would mean changing the whole fucking system.

    • youngexecutive

      Can’t see the forest cause of the trees can you? This IS a big issue!

    • TriedBy12

      So basically you’re solution is to just accept that these gaming “journalists” are trustworthy enough to listen to on the games they review regardless of the fact that the game dev fucked his for a good review and rating. You sir are all that is wrong with this planet. Please rectify that issue.

  • Stephen Carnaggio

    Your image link to 4chan is broken. That sight moves very fast and content drops off the board just as fast. It’s because 4chan doesn’t archive any of its threads, because it was designed for quick discussion, not long term stuff.

  • Stephen Carnaggio

    Your image link to 4chan is broken. That sight moves very fast and content drops off the board just as fast. It’s because 4chan doesn’t archive any of its threads, because it was designed for quick discussion, not long term stuff.

  • bobomb

    if you’re genuinely angry about feminism, “SJWs”, or zoe quinn, you’re a bad person and far too invested in videogames. try to solve at least one of those problems.

    ps, if this was about corruption, why would people be going for zoe and not the kotaku editor? it’s purely about what men think about what women think about videogames, which is Very Important, apparently.

    • ruleofthebrave

      did you read the article by the way?

    • asdf

      “if this was about corruption, why would people be going for zoe and not the kotaku editor?”

      we all wanna see them go for the people involved in this instead of zoe
      but it seems that no one wants cover the story about the kotaku editors

      all we see are articles of her being attacked and harassed by MRA’s and anti-SJWs groups but not one word about the people who was involved with zoe

      • Sartharina

        Who’s the one who propositioned?

      • TerribleName

        If they wrote a story about the kotaku guy they couldnt use misogyny as a smoke screen though. If the story is ‘Zoe Quinn is brave and innocent and everyone who says otherwise just hates women’ it kinda falls apart if you try that tactic with a dude. Talking about the men involved opens it up for discussions of ethics and integrity that you can’t just dodge by playing the victim card, so none of the major players are going to do it.

        Plus Grayson knows what hes doing. He went to ground and stayed meek as soon as this exploded and let his boss do the talking for him. Quinn fed the trolls and attracted as much attention as possible so she could play the misogyny card to sweep the whole thing away. Pretty smart though. Any real attempt at talking will be lost under the tide of FAKE GIRL GAMERS from the morons and she’ll come out mostly untouched.

    • youngexecutive

      Na. You don’t get to tell anyone what should anger them or not anger them. Or get to feel entitled to label them bad when they don’t tow your line.

      And sorry, but the hate ZOE receives is deserved. Cause the things she’s done are way more hateable than anyone else in this mess.

    • TriedBy12

      >if this was about corruption, why would people be going for zoe and not the kotaku editor…

      Well let me put it like this, because the only evidence of Kotaku’s “journalist” sleeping with this unsavory women is her admission to her ex-boyfriend. With nothing but her word to go on it’s not exactly easy to do anything to said “journalist”. Beyond that Zoe deserves to be gone after due to her own actions in making a mountain out of an anthill by getting her underwear in knots based on two posts on WizChan, accusing /v/ of doxxing her and lets not forget contacting mods on Reddit and other forums in order to censor most threads that popped up about her. Her actions of manipulating people across the web into bowing down, kissing her ass and telling her what a special snowflake she is seems to me to be the main reason she’s being attacked (at least by gamers).
      The other side of this whole shitstorm is the fact that she puts herself out as a proponent of feminism searching for equality for all is complete bullshit. She may actually believe the things she says (I highly doubt it) but her actions however tell a different story.

    • Gregg Braddoch

      “if you’re genuinely angry about feminism, ‘SJWs’, or zoe quinn, you’re a bad person and far too invested in videogames.”

      You sound like Sarkeesian, before she lied to the world and said she liked video games. She had written anti-gaming crap while working toward her degree. You sound like an anti-gamer or a guilty gamer – Someone who has been convinced that gaming is in some way unhealthy. Either way, if someone messes with football people get angry, so really you have no business telling people not to be upset about people messing with their favorite pastime. You also have no business judging people you don’t know as “being far too invested in videogames.”

      Essentially your comment is “Well yeah, some shitty stuff happened to your hobby, get over it, or you are stupid” – That’s really helpful to the discourse.

      Then of course you throw in the bit about the male counterparts not being criticized over the scandal. Which is legitimate I think – Why is the gaming community being demonized for being angry at the terrible actions Quinn and these people have taken? Why not have articles on the front page of all the major focusing on the Misogyny of those who allowed Quinn to trade sex for favors? Instead, we get articles making Quinn a martyr, and criticizing the community she defrauded.

  • bobomb

    if you’re genuinely angry about feminism, “SJWs”, or zoe quinn, you’re a bad person and far too invested in videogames. try to solve at least one of those problems.

    ps, if this was about corruption, why would people be going for zoe and not the kotaku editor? it’s purely about what men think about what women think about videogames, which is Very Important, apparently.

    • ruleofthebrave

      did you read the article by the way?

    • asdf

      “if this was about corruption, why would people be going for zoe and not the kotaku editor?”

      we all wanna see them go for the people involved in this instead of zoe
      but it seems that no one wants cover the story about the kotaku editors

      all we see are articles of her being attacked and harassed by MRA’s and anti-SJWs groups but not one word about the people who was involved with zoe

      • Sartharina

        Who’s the one who propositioned?

      • TerribleName

        If they wrote a story about the kotaku guy they couldnt use misogyny as a smoke screen though. If the story is ‘Zoe Quinn is brave and innocent and everyone who says otherwise just hates women’ it kinda falls apart if you try that tactic with a dude. Talking about the men involved opens it up for discussions of ethics and integrity that you can’t just dodge by playing the victim card, so none of the major players are going to do it.

        Plus Grayson knows what hes doing. He went to ground and stayed meek as soon as this exploded and let his boss do the talking for him. Quinn fed the trolls and attracted as much attention as possible so she could play the misogyny card to sweep the whole thing away. Pretty smart though. Any real attempt at talking will be lost under the tide of FAKE GIRL GAMERS from the morons and she’ll come out mostly untouched.

    • youngexecutive

      Na. You don’t get to tell anyone what should anger them or not anger them. Or get to feel entitled to label them bad when they don’t tow your line.

      And sorry, but the hate ZOE receives is deserved. Cause the things she’s done are way more hateable than anyone else in this mess.

    • TriedBy12

      >if this was about corruption, why would people be going for zoe and not the kotaku editor…

      Well let me put it like this, because the only evidence of Kotaku’s “journalist” sleeping with this unsavory women is her admission to her ex-boyfriend. With nothing but her word to go on it’s not exactly easy to do anything to said “journalist”. Beyond that Zoe deserves to be gone after due to her own actions in making a mountain out of an anthill by getting her underwear in knots based on two posts on WizChan, accusing /v/ of doxxing her and lets not forget contacting mods on Reddit and other forums in order to censor most threads that popped up about her. Her actions of manipulating people across the web into bowing down, kissing her ass and telling her what a special snowflake she is seems to me to be the main reason she’s being attacked (at least by gamers).
      The other side of this whole shitstorm is the fact that she puts herself out as a proponent of feminism searching for equality for all is complete bullshit. She may actually believe the things she says (I highly doubt it) but her actions however tell a different story.

    • Gregg Braddoch

      “if you’re genuinely angry about feminism, ‘SJWs’, or zoe quinn, you’re a bad person and far too invested in videogames.”

      You sound like Sarkeesian, before she lied to the world and said she liked video games. She had written anti-gaming crap while working toward her degree. You sound like an anti-gamer or a guilty gamer – Someone who has been convinced that gaming is in some way unhealthy. Either way, if someone messes with football people get angry, so really you have no business telling people not to be upset about people messing with their favorite pastime. You also have no business judging people you don’t know as “being far too invested in videogames.”

      Essentially your comment is “Well yeah, some shitty stuff happened to your hobby, get over it, or you are stupid” – That’s really helpful to the discourse.

      Then of course you throw in the bit about the male counterparts not being criticized over the scandal. Which is legitimate I think – Why is the gaming community being demonized for being angry at the terrible actions Quinn and these people have taken? Why not have articles on the front page of all the major focusing on the Misogyny of those who allowed Quinn to trade sex for favors? Instead, we get articles making Quinn a martyr, and criticizing the community she defrauded.

  • BabaYaga

    hi i´m Zoe Quinn and i am a fraud. Thanks that you all were so stupid to support me. Now F*** off and give me publicity and your money. I am a female and so you have to support me. I cant write code and draw textures but at least i can be a poser. Welcome to my little dream world where games have to be feminised. Yeah baby go baby, Team vagina is on teh run. We will win this figth! Cuz we rock and dont work but we dont need to do work cuz we are female with a voice. Get over it man, we dont need any talent… we only need a corrupt press pushing forward out talentless BS. Thanks Yall for supporting the fraud!

  • BabaYaga

    hi i´m Zoe Quinn and i am a fraud. Thanks that you all were so stupid to support me. Now F*** off and give me publicity and your money. I am a female and so you have to support me. I cant write code and draw textures but at least i can be a poser. Welcome to my little dream world where games have to be feminised. Yeah baby go baby, Team vagina is on teh run. We will win this figth! Cuz we rock and dont work but we dont need to do work cuz we are female with a voice. Get over it man, we dont need any talent… we only need a corrupt press pushing forward out talentless BS. Thanks Yall for supporting the fraud!

  • Glenn McBride

    I knew we were headed into a quagmire when the “Fake Geek Girl” phenomenon first reared its ugly head back in 2012. The “mainstream” gaming community instantly rolled out the red carpet for the “Gamer Grrls”. Even Penny Arcade pulled out the shaming tactics, and self-elected themselves to be the moral compass of all gamer-kind. Little did they know that once you allow attention whores in, their “Social Justice Warrior” kin are never far behind. Ultimately, they always attempt to appropriate the culture, then remake it in their own image. The feminist SJW crowd tried the same trick with the atheist community, but the atheists, being a rather pragmatic bunch, were able to flush the “skepchicks” out in short order. But, here in the gaming world, we have yet to figure out that the endless lust for an ever larger demographic, and thus more advertising revenue, will always lead to dilution of our separate and distinct culture.

    • TerribleName

      You know, you’re not doing yourself or the discussion any favors by rolling out the tired old ‘Fake Geek Girl’ thing. And especially not by worrying over the ‘dilution of our separate and distinct culture’, which I’m pretty sure is the kind of thing a white supremacist would say.

      There is plenty to be upset with in this whole debacle – like the absence of journalistic integrity, the abuse of wizardchan, siccing the dogs on The Fine Young Capitalists, and Zoe’s generally exploiting others – without delving into good old fashioned ‘women are attention whores’ territory. Thats exactly the kind of thing that allows people to dismiss everything happening as just misogynistic ranting. One guy (or thousands of them really) goes off the rails and starts spouting ‘Sexism now, sexism tomorrow, sexism forever’ and suddenly everyone gets painted with that brush and no one makes any progress.

      Be better than the SJWs. Instead of making blanket assumptions about people and deciding who is and isn’t allowed in the group based on whether or not they think the right kind of thoughts, slow your roll and put some thought into your actions. Consider that maybe not everyone is an evil jerk out to ruin all you hold dear, and some of them may actually be human beings who are just kind of dumb. That alone would make you better than 95% of the people who think of themselves as SJWs. We might even be able to talk about some of the real underlying problems for once instead of screaming FAKE GAMER GIRL and MISOGYNIST back and forth like kindergartners.

      • Glenn McBride

        Im sorry, what sex is zoe quinn again? Oh…right…female. Hmm. Pot, kettle, black.

        • TerribleName

          I have no idea what you’re trying to convey with this post. Could you maybe try again and put a little effort into it? Yes. Zoe is a woman. Shes also a pretty terrible human being. Lets focus on the fact that shes not a good person rather than the fact that shes a woman. If we make this about her being a woman then its really easy to dismiss this whole episode as ‘hah, those nerds just hate women’, which is exactly what is happening. You are exactly the reason Zoe and people like her are going to walk away from this untarnished. Stop being mad at her because shes got tits. Pick one of the numerous other reasons to be mad at her instead.

          • Glenn McBride

            Absolutely! All you have to do is let us all know the name of a male developer or journalist that fucked his way into the greenlight. I will wait here. I am sure you will provide a name. Any second now. Yup.

          • TerribleName

            Again I’m not certain what you’re getting at here. Yes, being mad at Zoe (and the industry in general) because she used sex and connections to get a bad game greenlit is perfectly fine. Its an example of the complete lack of ethics and integrity in the gaming world. Thats a pretty good reason to be mad.

            That said, there are probably tons of male developers who used their connections to get ahead, but they didnt have huge blowouts where an ex caught them fucking a half dozen people and went ballistic about it on the internet. I guess the gays haven’t taken over the media yet? But being a manipulative sleaze isn’t gender exclusive. Get mad at Zoe because shes lying and manipulative, not because she has tits.

          • Brian Crocker

            In what way did she fuck her way into greenlight? Are we seriously using GREENLIGHT as a bench mark for “real games”? The program that, one of the first games greenlit was fucking YOGVENTURES – a game that didn’t exist when they got greenlit, and will never exist, and only existed as some art assets an shittily made maps. Getting through Greenlight is not a mark of accomplishment, even Valve admits the entire process was broken from the start.
            She didn’t have to fuck anyone to get greenlit, because the entire process is as worthless as anything.
            She exists on Steam? WHOOP-DE-FUCKING-DOO. At leats her game WORKS as intended. Can’t say the same about The War Z or Day 1: Gary’s Incident or any of the other broken messes that have appeared on Steam for zero fucking reason.

          • Brian Crocker

            If you want an example of shitty pandering getting people ahead of the pack, you can’t find a better example than Yogventures getting a greenlight pass when there was zero work done on making it a game at that point.

          • TriedBy12

            No actually I feel that what she did to get green lit is much worse than fucking someone for the privilege of releasing her “choose your own adventure” book game. I’m sorry but her overreaction to two posts on WizChan, in which she wrapped herself up in a victim suit and took to twitter to have all her SJC’s band around her and vote to get her game greenlit

          • Brian Crocker

            What did she do to get greenlit? I don’t remember a valve employee being on the list…

          • TriedBy12

            My understanding was (and I could be wrong on this) that votes from the community is what pushes games to get greenlit (gl) on Steam. Zoe’s “harassment” from WizChan didn’t start until after DQ was removed from being greenlit the first time, then just before theWizChan stuff happens she relisted DQ, harassment happened and her groupies (or what ever you want to call them) came together to help her get the game greenlit. As I said I could be wrong, but thats the impression I got after spending all night trying to understand this shit.

          • TerribleName

            Basically this. Zoe claimed harassment from WizChan. Many of the major gaming sites picked the story up and reported it wide and far. Zoe caught a surge of popularity and her new followers pushed DQ through greenlight, not to mention topping up her patreon.

            Whats weird is that lots of people get harassed every day on the internet. Very few of them get front page stories posted about it on multiple sites. Almost like she knew some people at the publications or something.

          • Brian Crocker

            No it’s not. There have been games that recieved the requisite number of votes, but sat ungreenlit for quite some time, while other games got pushed past. There was plenty of negativity surrounding the game during the process – plenty of people claiming it “wasn’t a game, etc etc”. The fact is the Greenlight process is nebulous, and there is no “sure way” to get greenlit.

          • Glenn McBride

            More apologist drivel, please. All Hail Saint Zoe!

          • TerribleName

            Working as intended is not really high praise for a bunch of text pages that you navigate by clicking links. Its a bit like pointing out that the wheels on your hotwheels car really spin while laughing about a rocket launch being delayed.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            It works as intended…. AS A WEBSITE!!!!

          • Glenn McBride

            All Hail Saint Zoe! Mount thy mighty steed, Sir White Knight!

          • Gregg Braddoch

            YOGVENTURES had 3D dimensional artwork, textures, and a whole lot of other stuff that differentiated it from DQ.

            DQ is a website.

            “a game that didn’t exist when they got greenlit, and will never exist, and only existed as some art assets an shittily made maps.”

            Greenlit games do not by definition have to exist. They can be upcoming games. The problem with DQ is it was a “finished game” – I mean website.

            “At leats her game WORKS as intended. Can’t say the same about The War Z or Day 1: Gary’s Incident or any of the other broken messes that have appeared on Steam for zero fucking reason.”

            At least War Z has art assets, and actual gameplay, even if it is not as intended. Depression Quest functions as intended, kinda like a… WEBSITE!

            If you like Depression Quest, I have another “finished game” that “works as intended” – It’s this website I’ve made called Denial Quest.

          • Brainiac

            Yeah, Einstein because there are many women in positions of power in gaming. Your argument doesn’t work if men hold the top positions because there are no women to fuck to get ahead…

        • bob

          :/ really?

      • youngexecutive

        Naw.

        He said Zoe is part of the fake gamer girl phenomenon…. you read “women are attention whores” into it because you are a closet SJW. You seem uncomfortable with the fact that Zoe is taking serious heat when that is in fact what her actions warrant. You want egg shells. Is it because she has tits?

        • Brian Crocker

          She’s not a fake gamer girl. She actually developed and created a video game, and has participated in several game jams. That’s as real a gamer as it gets. What have you done, perchance, in the games industry?

          • youngexecutive

            She is ABSOLUTELY part of the fake gamer girl phenomenon… 1/4 politics, 1/4 tramping, 1/4 drama, 1/4 gaming….

            And don’t try to make this about me… no deflection allowed. Plus t’s the wrong tree to bark up.

          • BabaYaga

            are you stupid ? What game has fraudster Quinn done eh ? Visiting a jam and talking about no single technical aspect of development procees is a sign of being a game dev ? Well, get lost you silly fool. Realy. Many modders have done more as all these fraudsters all together not asking for anything (including me)

          • Brian Crocker

            Depression Quest is a game, it existed before she even met Eron. Is it a GOOD game? Not for me to judge, but it is in fact a game, and she made it. You can’t say “she’s not a gamer”. She totally fucking is, and of ALL the things you could go after, that is totally the worst, laziest, and dumbest line of attack. She has participated in game jams where games were created with her input and effort, and then released (not for pay, they were never about that). That is more than you have done. Because you can SAY you did stuff, but there is zero proof of it. Everyone is an expert on the internet. Zoe, for all her faults and shitty actions, HAS actually produced a video game. And if that’s not a video game, NO text adventure game is a video game, and text adventures are one of the foundational pillars of computer based gaming.

          • TerribleName

            It actually *is* for you to judge. You’re a human. You get to make judgements about things. You can disagree with other people, and they can disagree with you, and everyone can be adults and get along anyways. If you’ve played the game, which is free if you havent, you are totally within your rights to judge it according to whatever metrics you care to use. No one can stop you. Maybe you should try exercising judgement more often rather than taking a ‘well, maaaaaybe’ stance all the time. You might grow a personality instead of being an apologist for everyone else. Just remember your judgement is in no way binding on anyone else and people are free to disagree with you and it should work out fine.

          • Thomas

            I’d like to point out that making a game does not, in fact, make you a gamer by default. It can point to that, but all it really makes you is a game designer. Technically, you don’t even have to have played games so far as having tested your own game—you can hire people for that.

            Not making any judgements here, just pointing out a flaw in the argument.

          • Glenn McBride

            All Hail Saint Zoe!

          • Brian Crocker

            Like other MRA/Anti-SJW thugs, you fail to actually read – or more likely, can’t read for comprehension. I have consistantly in my posts said Zoe’s actions against Eron make her a shitty, hypocritical human being. I just don’t think any of this other nonsense is in any way worth the attention it has recieved. She fucked some dudes – whoop-de-doo. She got greenlit – again, whoo-de-fucking-doo, Yogventures got fucking greenlit. She is on Steam – again, so was The War Z and so is Ride To Hell: Retribution. That’s not saying much.

          • Sartharina

            She’s only a ‘saint’ because assholes like you martyred her to more moderate voices in the Social Justice Cause, instead of exposing her as a hypocritical fraud. You are furthering her career. Stahp it.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            You mean like these ‘moderates’ here that aren’t even gamers?

            http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/22/gaming-misogyny-gets-infinite-lives-zoe-quinn-virtual-rape-and-sexism.html

            Yeah, sorry, but it isn’t the gamers criticizing Quinn who have turned her into a saint, but those who have decided that criticism of her is “misogynistic” that have attempted to deify her. Those people are at fault for that, and not the gaming community which she got caught manipulating.

            For the record, and for my own curiosity, what ‘moderate’ SJWs are you talking about? What do they say about this case?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Said game could be developed by grade schoolers with the technology available today, and the information on the wikipedia page about depression. Not only is it a BAD game, it is total garbage.

          • Brian Crocker

            So could every text based game from the 80s that I played on my Commodore 64 as a kid. Ditto most of the games released on the Pet or Vic-20, or pretty much any game in BASIC from those days. Those are not games now?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “So could every text based game from the 80s that I played on my Commodore 64 as a kid. Ditto most of the games released on the Pet or Vic-20, or pretty much any game in BASIC from those days. Those are not games now?”

            Umm, no not really. Zork and many other games that were made in the 80s with the available technology are WORLDS better than Depression Quest and took time and effort to program. Algorithms for parsing text commands from plain language did not exist, and therefore needed to be programmed.

            Depression Quest is not a game in the sense that it is simply interactive fiction. It’s writing is so bad that it is an insult to those who suffer with real depression. So not only does it fail at being a real game, it fails even as a “choose your own adventure” book. For the level of “development” complexity, I could make a game that is comparable using HTML and nothing else. (And nowhere in my mind would I entertain the delusion that making an HTML game somehow bestows upon me the title of ‘game developer’) This is like someone programming chess (which is much more complex than even Depression Quest) and claiming to be a game developer, or starring as an extra in a TV show and claiming to be an actor – You could *technically* call it that, but everyone will know you are not a real actor or game developer.

          • Glenn McBride

            You mean what has he done aside form shovel vast amounts of cash into the pockets of the gaming industry? And refrain from prostituting himself for a little greenlight action? Maybe Saint Zoe will absolve him of all his sins.

          • Red Lagoon

            Depression Quest is not a video game. Someone made a parody of it, here go and “play it”:

            http://oppressionquest.com/

          • Brian Crocker

            If DQ is not a game, then we must now exclude every text-based adventure ever released as being a “game”.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “If DQ is not a game, then we must now exclude every text-based adventure ever released as being a “game”.”

            Umm no. Text adventures can generally parse real language, generally have some sort of inventory, and generally have puzzles to solve. Depression Quest has none of these. It is a series of links to text, which we commonly refer to as a “webpage.”

          • Red Lagoon

            Not really, only those who look like html pages and even a 12 year old can put together by taking info from Encyclopedia Britannica (about depression, religion or evolution as much as I care)!

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “That’s as real a gamer as it gets. ”

            LOL! Yeah, because a flash/website game is the hallmark of a serious game developer. And participation in Game Jams is a requirement to be a gamer.

            “What have you done, perchance, in the games industry?”

            I’ll bet they’ve done what true gamers do: Play video games, duh.

          • Brian Crocker

            Requirement? No. Not even remotely. But now couch jockeys are saying someone who develops games is not actually a gamer? LOL.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Requirement? No. Not even remotely. But now couch jockeys are saying someone who develops games is not actually a gamer? LOL.”

            You mean gamers who don’t like the ONE stupid game a certain person made calling them not a game developer? I’ve programmed tic-tac-toe – Thats a game, maybe I should see if steam should greenlight it – Oh wait, that’s right, I’m pretty sure I couldn’t falsely accuse wizchan of attacking me and use Robin Williams death to my advantage – that’s already been done.

        • Sartharina

          The “Fake Gamer Girl” phenomenon isn’t actually real, and even if it is, it’s not significant.

          Yes, Zoe’s a gamer and game developer – that isn’t up for debate. However, you’re only helping her cause by attacking her as Anti-“SJW”. It’s not the heat that bothers us, it’s the type of heat. Criticize her for her lack of journalistic integrity. Burn her for her hypocrisy, and shut her down because of what she did to those who are ACTUALLY trying to make it easier for women to enjoy gaming and get into the industry in a productive and valued manner.

          Questioning her credentials as a gamer and developer are as out-of-line as they area absolutely irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if she’s a Shitty, Fake, Real, or Excellent Game Developer/Gamer, because that has no aspect or bearing on her behavior.

          • BabaYaga

            It matters alot if someone jumps into a scene claiming to be something she is not. And she has no credits. Get over it. She is a useless idiot pushing non related topics into gaming. Thats the only fact. A fraud can only create a fraud !

          • youngexecutive

            I’m not helping her case, but you are by being so politically correct. Women aren’t sacred. And Zoe deserves the exact heat that you think should be taboo.

            Zoe got into gaming as a cause. Doors were opened to her because of her politics. She is now being protected because of her allies, not her skills.

            Her gaming cred matters a hell of a lot.

          • TerribleName

            Did you actually read what was posted, or did you see the furry avatar and just make assumptions? Sartharina is fine with bringing the heat down on Zoe for being a bad person, but when you try to bring the heat down on her explicitly because shes a woman or because she isn’t gamer enough for you all you’re doing is handing ammo to the SJWs who will ignore everything thats happened and call it misogyny.

            If you want to fight SJWs you can’t engage them on their pet issues. Zoe is a bad person for a number of reasons, use those. Citing being a woman or a fake girl gamer is just going to earn you the ‘neckbeard misogynist’ label and they will discount everything else you have to say. Its hard to argue against ‘lack of journalistic integrity’, its very easy to argue against ‘fake girl gamer’

          • youngexecutive

            Did you actually read what I posted or just assume I pay attention to avatars?

            Zoe explicitly need to have heat brought down on her as a woman, because that’s how she puts her self out there AND because she explicitly brings heat down on people because of gender. If she can dish it out she can take.

            And SJW’s are gonna take her side no matter what. They will find any fake reason to scream misogyny in order to deflect from the fact that one of their “own “is evil.

          • TerribleName

            Its asymmetric warfare though. If you just like yelling at people its cool I guess, but if you want to actually accomplish anything or make people *think* about whats going on, you absolutely *have* to avoid referring to gender. As soon as you say anything regarding gender you’ve already lost. Its not a fair and even handed debate. Zoe gets to use the woman card as protection, you can’t use it as a sword. Welcome to life, its occasionally unfair (which I guess is the real feminists main point. Bullshit exists so you can’t handle things with equality even though you would really like to do so).

            There is no clean and easy answer to calling her and the others out on things like journalistic integrity or bullying others for attention. Those accusations require complex answers which can be taken apart.

            The clean and easy answer to calling Zoe out on using her gender as a weapon is to call you a misogynist and ignore anything else you have to say, because who would listen to a misogynist? Literally nothing else you have to say counts once you try to talk about gender. Thats it. And most undecided people will side with the SJWs over you because *they* don’t want to be accused of being a misogynist. Its not very fun.

            But again, if you just wanna yell about it for a bit and blow off some steam thats your call I guess. Just be aware of what you’re trying to accomplish.

          • youngexecutive

            SWJ’s are gonna scream sexism no matter what. And if Zoe uses the woman card it’s because SWJ’s and people like you allow her too.

            Maybe if you stop being such a egg shell walker SWJ’s wouldn’t feel so entitled to let a bitch act like one and not be called one.

            I’m not blowing off steam. I’m keeping it real, while you cower in fear of being a blasphemer.

          • TerribleName

            I’m sorry the world is a complex place with occasionally unfair rules. It would be super nice if calling people on their bullshit was as easy as you want it to be, but sadly it isn’t. This is how it works. I’d love to be able to fly but gravity continues to be a thing no matter how unfair I think it is.

            You gotta fight on everything else though, because some fights just aren’t winnable. Sorry dude. Keep it real though, somebody has to.

          • youngexecutive

            Oh great. You’re someone that only fights when you think you can win.

            Well I don’t because…

            A. I don’t have a crystal ball that can see into the future.

            B. Winning is not the point of every fight.

          • Sartharina

            SJWs are people too, and each one has just as much voice as you do. Trying to dismiss them and marginalize their opinions only turns up the heat against you. Furthermore, each SJ-inclined person has unique thoughts, opinions, and interpretations of social justice. There are a LOT of us who are outraged by this – It would have been easy to let the SJW’s ISM (Internet Shitstorm machine) shred Zoe for the betrayal – but instead, people like you just validated her.

            As for trying to “bring the heat down on her for being a woman”… where I grew up, there’s a term for that – “Briar Patching”. That’s like trying to extinguish a fire with Gasoline… or, dangit… I know there’s a good Video Game Analogy somewhere, but where you say “Stepping on Eggshells”… she’s more like a Video Game Boss that has a weakspot surrounded by highly-visible plates saying “shoot me!” – except instead of hurting her, make her stronger and even more powerful.

            She built her career around getting herself victimized as a woman. Any attempt to make it about her sex, instead of her being a horrible person,

          • youngexecutive

            Capitalists don’t police their own.
            Politicians don’t police their own.
            Even Police don’t police their own.
            But SJW’s are special…..

            And sorry but calling Zoe out for being a hypocritical bitch that she is, doesn’t validate her. Treating her like she’s a victim when she isn’t one simply because she has a vagina validates her.

          • John

            “Trying to dismiss them and marginalize their opinions only turns up the heat against you.”

            The Main problem to SJW,you even are cis hetero white male.

          • Sartharina

            I am not Cis, I am not white, I am not straight,, and I am not male.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Yes, Zoe’s a gamer and game developer – that isn’t up for debate.”

            LOL. I love how people keep calling her a game developer. This would mean that anyone who has ever programmed a game, no matter how shitty is a game developer. Sorry, but I reserve the term “game developer” for people who have developed more than one game, or at least have made a serious title that required some actual skills.

            Depression Quest is not a game. It has little to no artwork, and is essentially a website. I could re-create the entirety of the ‘game’ in an hour using HTML.

    • Brian Crocker

      You are just a sad, pathetic little man, stomping your little feet.

      • Glenn McBride

        From the likes of you, that is high praise indeed.

        • Brian Crocker

          It all circles back to fake geek girls. Jesus christ.

  • Glenn McBride

    I knew we were headed into a quagmire when the “Fake Geek Girl” phenomenon first reared its ugly head back in 2012. The “mainstream” gaming community instantly rolled out the red carpet for the “Gamer Grrls”. Even Penny Arcade pulled out the shaming tactics, and self-elected themselves to be the moral compass of all gamer-kind. Little did they know that once you allow attention whores in, their “Social Justice Warrior” kin are never far behind. Ultimately, they always attempt to appropriate the culture, then remake it in their own image. The feminist SJW crowd tried the same trick with the atheist community, but the atheists, being a rather pragmatic bunch, were able to flush the “skepchicks” out in short order. But, here in the gaming world, we have yet to figure out that the endless lust for an ever larger demographic, and thus more advertising revenue, will always lead to dilution of our separate and distinct culture.

    • TerribleName

      You know, you’re not doing yourself or the discussion any favors by rolling out the tired old ‘Fake Geek Girl’ thing. And especially not by worrying over the ‘dilution of our separate and distinct culture’, which I’m pretty sure is the kind of thing a white supremacist would say.

      There is plenty to be upset with in this whole debacle – like the absence of journalistic integrity, the abuse of wizardchan, siccing the dogs on The Fine Young Capitalists, and Zoe’s generally exploiting others – without delving into good old fashioned ‘women are attention whores’ territory. Thats exactly the kind of thing that allows people to dismiss everything happening as just misogynistic ranting. One guy (or thousands of them really) goes off the rails and starts spouting ‘Sexism now, sexism tomorrow, sexism forever’ and suddenly everyone gets painted with that brush and no one makes any progress.

      Be better than the SJWs. Instead of making blanket assumptions about people and deciding who is and isn’t allowed in the group based on whether or not they think the right kind of thoughts, slow your roll and put some thought into your actions. Consider that maybe not everyone is an evil jerk out to ruin all you hold dear, and some of them may actually be human beings who are just kind of dumb. That alone would make you better than 95% of the people who think of themselves as SJWs. We might even be able to talk about some of the real underlying problems for once instead of screaming FAKE GAMER GIRL and MISOGYNIST back and forth like kindergartners.

      • Glenn McBride

        Im sorry, what sex is zoe quinn again? Oh…right…female. Hmm. Pot, kettle, black.

        • TerribleName

          I have no idea what you’re trying to convey with this post. Could you maybe try again and put a little effort into it? Yes. Zoe is a woman. Shes also a pretty terrible human being. Lets focus on the fact that shes not a good person rather than the fact that shes a woman. If we make this about her being a woman then its really easy to dismiss this whole episode as ‘hah, those nerds just hate women’, which is exactly what is happening. You are exactly the reason Zoe and people like her are going to walk away from this untarnished. Stop being mad at her because shes got tits. Pick one of the numerous other reasons to be mad at her instead.

          • Glenn McBride

            Absolutely! All you have to do is let us all know the name of a male developer or journalist that fucked his way into the greenlight. I will wait here. I am sure you will provide a name. Any second now. Yup.

          • TerribleName

            Again I’m not certain what you’re getting at here. Yes, being mad at Zoe (and the industry in general) because she used sex and connections to get a bad game greenlit is perfectly fine. Its an example of the complete lack of ethics and integrity in the gaming world. Thats a pretty good reason to be mad.

            That said, there are probably tons of male developers who used their connections to get ahead, but they didnt have huge blowouts where an ex caught them fucking a half dozen people and went ballistic about it on the internet. I guess the gays haven’t taken over the media yet? But being a manipulative sleaze isn’t gender exclusive. Get mad at Zoe because shes lying and manipulative, not because she has tits.

          • Brian Crocker

            In what way did she fuck her way into greenlight? Are we seriously using GREENLIGHT as a bench mark for “real games”? The program that, one of the first games greenlit was fucking YOGVENTURES – a game that didn’t exist when they got greenlit, and will never exist, and only existed as some art assets an shittily made maps. Getting through Greenlight is not a mark of accomplishment, even Valve admits the entire process was broken from the start.
            She didn’t have to fuck anyone to get greenlit, because the entire process is as worthless as anything.
            She exists on Steam? WHOOP-DE-FUCKING-DOO. At leats her game WORKS as intended. Can’t say the same about The War Z or Day 1: Gary’s Incident or any of the other broken messes that have appeared on Steam for zero fucking reason.

          • Brian Crocker

            If you want an example of shitty pandering getting people ahead of the pack, you can’t find a better example than Yogventures getting a greenlight pass when there was zero work done on making it a game at that point.

          • TriedBy12

            No actually I feel that what she did to get green lit is much worse than fucking someone for the privilege of releasing her “choose your own adventure” book game. I’m sorry but her overreaction to two posts on WizChan, in which she wrapped herself up in a victim suit and took to twitter to have all her SJC’s band around her and vote to get her game greenlit

          • Brian Crocker

            What did she do to get greenlit? I don’t remember a valve employee being on the list…

          • TriedBy12

            My understanding was (and I could be wrong on this) that votes from the community is what pushes games to get greenlit (gl) on Steam. Zoe’s “harassment” from WizChan didn’t start until after DQ was removed from being greenlit the first time, then just before theWizChan stuff happens she relisted DQ, harassment happened and her groupies (or what ever you want to call them) came together to help her get the game greenlit. As I said I could be wrong, but thats the impression I got after spending all night trying to understand this shit.

          • TerribleName

            Basically this. Zoe claimed harassment from WizChan. Many of the major gaming sites picked the story up and reported it wide and far. Zoe caught a surge of popularity and her new followers pushed DQ through greenlight, not to mention topping up her patreon.

            Whats weird is that lots of people get harassed every day on the internet. Very few of them get front page stories posted about it on multiple sites. Almost like she knew some people at the publications or something.

          • Brian Crocker

            No it’s not. There have been games that recieved the requisite number of votes, but sat ungreenlit for quite some time, while other games got pushed past. There was plenty of negativity surrounding the game during the process – plenty of people claiming it “wasn’t a game, etc etc”. The fact is the Greenlight process is nebulous, and there is no “sure way” to get greenlit.

          • Glenn McBride

            More apologist drivel, please. All Hail Saint Zoe!

          • TerribleName

            Working as intended is not really high praise for a bunch of text pages that you navigate by clicking links. Its a bit like pointing out that the wheels on your hotwheels car really spin while laughing about a rocket launch being delayed.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            It works as intended…. AS A WEBSITE!!!!

          • Glenn McBride

            All Hail Saint Zoe! Mount thy mighty steed, Sir White Knight!

          • Brian Crocker

            Again, you have nothing worthwhile to add. Also learn to read.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            YOGVENTURES had 3D dimensional artwork, textures, and a whole lot of other stuff that differentiated it from DQ.

            DQ is a website.

            “a game that didn’t exist when they got greenlit, and will never exist, and only existed as some art assets an shittily made maps.”

            Greenlit games do not by definition have to exist. They can be upcoming games. The problem with DQ is it was a “finished game” – I mean website.

            “At leats her game WORKS as intended. Can’t say the same about The War Z or Day 1: Gary’s Incident or any of the other broken messes that have appeared on Steam for zero fucking reason.”

            At least War Z has art assets, and actual gameplay, even if it is not as intended. Depression Quest functions as intended, kinda like a… WEBSITE!

            If you like Depression Quest, I have another “finished game” that “works as intended” – It’s this website I’ve made called Denial Quest.

          • Brainiac

            Yeah, Einstein because there are many women in positions of power in gaming. Your argument doesn’t work if men hold the top positions because there are no women to fuck to get ahead…

        • bob

          :/ really?

      • youngexecutive

        Naw.

        He said Zoe is part of the fake gamer girl phenomenon…. you read “women are attention whores” into it because you are a closet SJW. You seem uncomfortable with the fact that Zoe is taking serious heat when that is in fact what her actions warrant. You want egg shells. Is it because she has tits?

        • Brian Crocker

          She’s not a fake gamer girl. She actually developed and created a video game, and has participated in several game jams. That’s as real a gamer as it gets. What have you done, perchance, in the games industry?

          • youngexecutive

            She is ABSOLUTELY part of the fake gamer girl phenomenon… 1/4 politics, 1/4 tramping, 1/4 drama, 1/4 gaming….

            And don’t try to make this about me… no deflection allowed. Plus t’s the wrong tree to bark up.

          • BabaYaga

            are you stupid ? What game has fraudster Quinn done eh ? Visiting a jam and talking about no single technical aspect of development procees is a sign of being a game dev ? Well, get lost you silly fool. Realy. Many modders have done more as all these fraudsters all together not asking for anything (including me)

          • Brian Crocker

            Depression Quest is a game, it existed before she even met Eron. Is it a GOOD game? Not for me to judge, but it is in fact a game, and she made it. You can’t say “she’s not a gamer”. She totally fucking is, and of ALL the things you could go after, that is totally the worst, laziest, and dumbest line of attack. She has participated in game jams where games were created with her input and effort, and then released (not for pay, they were never about that). That is more than you have done. Because you can SAY you did stuff, but there is zero proof of it. Everyone is an expert on the internet. Zoe, for all her faults and shitty actions, HAS actually produced a video game. And if that’s not a video game, NO text adventure game is a video game, and text adventures are one of the foundational pillars of computer based gaming.

          • TerribleName

            It actually *is* for you to judge. You’re a human. You get to make judgements about things. You can disagree with other people, and they can disagree with you, and everyone can be adults and get along anyways. If you’ve played the game, which is free if you havent, you are totally within your rights to judge it according to whatever metrics you care to use. No one can stop you. Maybe you should try exercising judgement more often rather than taking a ‘well, maaaaaybe’ stance all the time. You might grow a personality instead of being an apologist for everyone else. Just remember your judgement is in no way binding on anyone else and people are free to disagree with you and it should work out fine.

          • Thomas

            I’d like to point out that making a game does not, in fact, make you a gamer by default. It can point to that, but all it really makes you is a game designer. Technically, you don’t even have to have played games so far as having tested your own game—you can hire people for that.

            Not making any judgements here, just pointing out a flaw in the argument.

          • Glenn McBride

            All Hail Saint Zoe!

          • Brian Crocker

            Like other MRA/Anti-SJW thugs, you fail to actually read – or more likely, can’t read for comprehension. I have consistantly in my posts said Zoe’s actions against Eron make her a shitty, hypocritical human being. I just don’t think any of this other nonsense is in any way worth the attention it has recieved. She fucked some dudes – whoop-de-doo. She got greenlit – again, whoo-de-fucking-doo, Yogventures got fucking greenlit. She is on Steam – again, so was The War Z and so is Ride To Hell: Retribution. That’s not saying much.

          • Sartharina

            She’s only a ‘saint’ because assholes like you martyred her to more moderate voices in the Social Justice Cause, instead of exposing her as a hypocritical fraud. You are furthering her career. Stahp it.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            You mean like these ‘moderates’ here that aren’t even gamers?

            http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/22/gaming-misogyny-gets-infinite-lives-zoe-quinn-virtual-rape-and-sexism.html

            Yeah, sorry, but it isn’t the gamers criticizing Quinn who have turned her into a saint, but those who have decided that criticism of her is “misogynistic” that have attempted to deify her. Those people are at fault for that, and not the gaming community which she got caught manipulating.

            For the record, and for my own curiosity, what ‘moderate’ SJWs are you talking about? What do they say about this case?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Said game could be developed by grade schoolers with the technology available today, and the information on the wikipedia page about depression. Not only is it a BAD game, it is total garbage.

          • Brian Crocker

            So could every text based game from the 80s that I played on my Commodore 64 as a kid. Ditto most of the games released on the Pet or Vic-20, or pretty much any game in BASIC from those days. Those are not games now?

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “So could every text based game from the 80s that I played on my Commodore 64 as a kid. Ditto most of the games released on the Pet or Vic-20, or pretty much any game in BASIC from those days. Those are not games now?”

            Umm, no not really. Zork and many other games that were made in the 80s with the available technology are WORLDS better than Depression Quest and took time and effort to program. Algorithms for parsing text commands from plain language did not exist, and therefore needed to be programmed.

            Depression Quest is not a game in the sense that it is simply interactive fiction. It’s writing is so bad that it is an insult to those who suffer with real depression. So not only does it fail at being a real game, it fails even as a “choose your own adventure” book. For the level of “development” complexity, I could make a game that is comparable using HTML and nothing else. (And nowhere in my mind would I entertain the delusion that making an HTML game somehow bestows upon me the title of ‘game developer’) This is like someone programming chess (which is much more complex than even Depression Quest) and claiming to be a game developer, or starring as an extra in a TV show and claiming to be an actor – You could *technically* call it that, but everyone will know you are not a real actor or game developer.

          • Glenn McBride

            You mean what has he done aside form shovel vast amounts of cash into the pockets of the gaming industry? And refrain from prostituting himself for a little greenlight action? Maybe Saint Zoe will absolve him of all his sins.

          • Red Lagoon

            Depression Quest is not a video game. Someone made a parody of it, here go and “play it”:

            http://oppressionquest.com/

          • Brian Crocker

            If DQ is not a game, then we must now exclude every text-based adventure ever released as being a “game”.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “If DQ is not a game, then we must now exclude every text-based adventure ever released as being a “game”.”

            Umm no. Text adventures can generally parse real language, generally have some sort of inventory, and generally have puzzles to solve. Depression Quest has none of these. It is a series of links to text, which we commonly refer to as a “webpage.”

          • Red Lagoon

            Not really, only those who look like html pages and even a 12 year old can put together by taking info from Encyclopedia Britannica (about depression, religion or evolution as much as I care)!

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “That’s as real a gamer as it gets. ”

            LOL! Yeah, because a flash/website game is the hallmark of a serious game developer. And participation in Game Jams is a requirement to be a gamer.

            “What have you done, perchance, in the games industry?”

            I’ll bet they’ve done what true gamers do: Play video games, duh.

          • Brian Crocker

            Requirement? No. Not even remotely. But now couch jockeys are saying someone who develops games is not actually a gamer? LOL.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Requirement? No. Not even remotely. But now couch jockeys are saying someone who develops games is not actually a gamer? LOL.”

            You mean gamers who don’t like the ONE stupid game a certain person made calling them not a game developer? I’ve programmed tic-tac-toe – Thats a game, maybe I should see if steam should greenlight it – Oh wait, that’s right, I’m pretty sure I couldn’t falsely accuse wizchan of attacking me and use Robin Williams death to my advantage – that’s already been done.

        • Sartharina

          The “Fake Gamer Girl” phenomenon isn’t actually real, and even if it is, it’s not significant.

          Yes, Zoe’s a gamer and game developer – that isn’t up for debate. However, you’re only helping her cause by attacking her as Anti-“SJW”. It’s not the heat that bothers us, it’s the type of heat. Criticize her for her lack of journalistic integrity. Burn her for her hypocrisy, and shut her down because of what she did to those who are ACTUALLY trying to make it easier for women to enjoy gaming and get into the industry in a productive and valued manner.

          Questioning her credentials as a gamer and developer are as out-of-line as they area absolutely irrelevant. It doesn’t matter if she’s a Shitty, Fake, Real, or Excellent Game Developer/Gamer, because that has no aspect or bearing on her behavior.

          • BabaYaga

            It matters alot if someone jumps into a scene claiming to be something she is not. And she has no credits. Get over it. She is a useless idiot pushing non related topics into gaming. Thats the only fact. A fraud can only create a fraud !

          • youngexecutive

            I’m not helping her case, but you are by being so politically correct. Women aren’t sacred. And Zoe deserves the exact heat that you think should be taboo.

            Zoe got into gaming as a cause. Doors were opened to her because of her politics. She is now being protected because of her allies, not her skills.

            Her gaming cred matters a hell of a lot.

          • TerribleName

            Did you actually read what was posted, or did you see the furry avatar and just make assumptions? Sartharina is fine with bringing the heat down on Zoe for being a bad person, but when you try to bring the heat down on her explicitly because shes a woman or because she isn’t gamer enough for you all you’re doing is handing ammo to the SJWs who will ignore everything thats happened and call it misogyny.

            If you want to fight SJWs you can’t engage them on their pet issues. Zoe is a bad person for a number of reasons, use those. Citing being a woman or a fake girl gamer is just going to earn you the ‘neckbeard misogynist’ label and they will discount everything else you have to say. Its hard to argue against ‘lack of journalistic integrity’, its very easy to argue against ‘fake girl gamer’

          • youngexecutive

            Did you actually read what I posted or just assume I pay attention to avatars?

            Zoe explicitly need to have heat brought down on her as a woman, because that’s how she puts her self out there AND because she explicitly brings heat down on people because of gender. If she can dish it out she can take.

            And SJW’s are gonna take her side no matter what. They will find any fake reason to scream misogyny in order to deflect from the fact that one of their “own “is evil.

          • TerribleName

            Its asymmetric warfare though. If you just like yelling at people its cool I guess, but if you want to actually accomplish anything or make people *think* about whats going on, you absolutely *have* to avoid referring to gender. As soon as you say anything regarding gender you’ve already lost. Its not a fair and even handed debate. Zoe gets to use the woman card as protection, you can’t use it as a sword. Welcome to life, its occasionally unfair (which I guess is the real feminists main point. Bullshit exists so you can’t handle things with equality even though you would really like to do so).

            There is no clean and easy answer to calling her and the others out on things like journalistic integrity or bullying others for attention. Those accusations require complex answers which can be taken apart.

            The clean and easy answer to calling Zoe out on using her gender as a weapon is to call you a misogynist and ignore anything else you have to say, because who would listen to a misogynist? Literally nothing else you have to say counts once you try to talk about gender. Thats it. And most undecided people will side with the SJWs over you because *they* don’t want to be accused of being a misogynist. Its not very fun.

            But again, if you just wanna yell about it for a bit and blow off some steam thats your call I guess. Just be aware of what you’re trying to accomplish.

          • youngexecutive

            SWJ’s are gonna scream sexism no matter what. And if Zoe uses the woman card it’s because SWJ’s and people like you allow her too.

            Maybe if you stop being such a egg shell walker SWJ’s wouldn’t feel so entitled to let a bitch act like one and not be called one.

            I’m not blowing off steam. I’m keeping it real, while you cower in fear of being a blasphemer.

          • TerribleName

            I’m sorry the world is a complex place with occasionally unfair rules. It would be super nice if calling people on their bullshit was as easy as you want it to be, but sadly it isn’t. This is how it works. I’d love to be able to fly but gravity continues to be a thing no matter how unfair I think it is.

            You gotta fight on everything else though, because some fights just aren’t winnable. Sorry dude. Keep it real though, somebody has to.

          • youngexecutive

            Oh great. You’re someone that only fights when you think you can win.

            Well I don’t because…

            A. I don’t have a crystal ball that can see into the future.

            B. Winning is not the point of every fight.

          • Sartharina

            SJWs are people too, and each one has just as much voice as you do. Trying to dismiss them and marginalize their opinions only turns up the heat against you. Furthermore, each SJ-inclined person has unique thoughts, opinions, and interpretations of social justice. There are a LOT of us who are outraged by this – It would have been easy to let the SJW’s ISM (Internet Shitstorm machine) shred Zoe for the betrayal – but instead, people like you just validated her.

            As for trying to “bring the heat down on her for being a woman”… where I grew up, there’s a term for that – “Briar Patching”. That’s like trying to extinguish a fire with Gasoline… or, dangit… I know there’s a good Video Game Analogy somewhere, but where you say “Stepping on Eggshells”… she’s more like a Video Game Boss that has a weakspot surrounded by highly-visible plates saying “shoot me!” – except instead of hurting her, make her stronger and even more powerful.

            She built her career around getting herself victimized as a woman. Any attempt to make it about her sex, instead of her being a horrible person,

          • youngexecutive

            Capitalists don’t police their own.
            Politicians don’t police their own.
            Even Police don’t police their own.
            But SJW’s are special…..

            And sorry but calling Zoe out for being a hypocritical bitch that she is, doesn’t validate her. Treating her like she’s a victim when she isn’t one simply because she has a vagina validates her.

          • John

            “Trying to dismiss them and marginalize their opinions only turns up the heat against you.”

            The Main problem to SJW,you even are cis hetero white male.

          • Sartharina

            I am not Cis, I am not white, I am not straight,, and I am not male.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Yes, Zoe’s a gamer and game developer – that isn’t up for debate.”

            LOL. I love how people keep calling her a game developer. This would mean that anyone who has ever programmed a game, no matter how shitty is a game developer. Sorry, but I reserve the term “game developer” for people who have developed more than one game, or at least have made a serious title that required some actual skills.

            Depression Quest is not a game. It has little to no artwork, and is essentially a website. I could re-create the entirety of the ‘game’ in an hour using HTML.

    • Brian Crocker

      You are just a sad, pathetic little man, stomping your little feet.

      • Glenn McBride

        From the likes of you, that is high praise indeed.

        • Brian Crocker

          It all circles back to fake geek girls. Jesus christ.

  • Anonymous

    For info and sources about the scandal

    http://oppressionquest.com/

    • Glenn McBride

      ROFL! Genius, pure genius. Set up a Kickstarter, I will donate right now.

  • Anonymous

    For info and sources about the scandal

    http://oppressionquest.com/

    • Glenn McBride

      ROFL! Genius, pure genius. Set up a Kickstarter, I will donate right now.

  • Teapot

    Hm, the hacking from “/V/” and Phil’s hacking, and all the twitter hacks and so on, have they not been confirmed fake or huge possibility it was fake? oh well.

    • Glenn McBride

      The term you are looking for is “false flag attack”. Very common tactic among tyrants and other assorted social parasites.

    • Frequent 4chan Poster

      The one from /v/ is totally not legit. “Head mod”? “Leader of Anonymous”? He even got the slogan wrong.

  • Teapot

    Hm, the hacking from “/V/” and Phil’s hacking, and all the twitter hacks and so on, have they not been confirmed fake or huge possibility it was fake? oh well.

    • Glenn McBride

      The term you are looking for is “false flag attack”. Very common tactic among tyrants and other assorted social parasites.

    • Frequent 4chan Poster

      The one from /v/ is totally not legit. “Head mod”? “Leader of Anonymous”? He even got the slogan wrong.

  • Propa_Tingz

    I saw some articles about this from the ‘other side’ and it sickened me. Feminists talking about how Zoe Quinn is being shamed and battered as if she is a total victim (by men of course). And the things Zoe Quinn and her passé have said, completely insulting and battering the gaming community that she supposedly represents. Absolutely shameless.

    Gaming isn’t the innocent fun-fueled hobby that it used to be when I was growing up. Now it’s overrun with politics, micro transactions, ‘the bottom line’. Remember when developers just tried to make a fun game and release it in full? No DLC crap and none of this ‘you must wait 20 minutes to play again, or purchase more lives for 3 dollars’ crap.

    Our last hope as true gamers were the indie community. And it looks like now even that is being infected with the disgusting ooze of commercialism and drama. I don’t see this going well. I don’t see how we can sustain our community when the community is now owned by conglomerates who have the money, resources, and high-level cliques to push around anyone they don’t agree with. This whole situation is a prime example. Anybody who does the slightest amount of research would see exactly what this is about. Zoe’s little clique has enough sway and influence to point their army of SJW’s at any target and make their lives miserable.

    We’ve got some very evil people with way too much sway. It’s sad that the good years of gaming are now behind us. RIP

    • Glenn McBride

      I began my gaming hobby playing Archon, Gunship, and Airborne Ranger on my Commodore C-64 back in the early 1980’s. In all these years, I never felt gamers or the gaming community was under any kind of serious threat, including bouts of economic malaise, or the anti-gaming litigation of kooks like Jack Thompson. But the recent infestation of militant feminists and SJW’s phonies like zoe quinn stands a good chance of having a profoundly negative impact on the entire culture.

      • BabaYaga

        I hear you buddy. C64 were the days of politically uncorrectness. Commando lybia etc. Those were the FREE days of do what you want and we dont give a f***. Thats why the indy scene was or is so important to push out games that are raw to the bone. Beach head games would create an outcry today. We must keep calling these SJW f***** out for what they are. Political tools of the social engeniers.

  • Propa_Tingz

    I saw some articles about this from the ‘other side’ and it sickened me. Feminists talking about how Zoe Quinn is being shamed and battered as if she is a total victim (by men of course). And the things Zoe Quinn and her passé have said, completely insulting and battering the gaming community that she supposedly represents. Absolutely shameless.

    Gaming isn’t the innocent fun-fueled hobby that it used to be when I was growing up. Now it’s overrun with politics, micro transactions, ‘the bottom line’. Remember when developers just tried to make a fun game and release it in full? No DLC crap and none of this ‘you must wait 20 minutes to play again, or purchase more lives for 3 dollars’ crap.

    Our last hope as true gamers were the indie community. And it looks like now even that is being infected with the disgusting ooze of commercialism and drama. I don’t see this going well. I don’t see how we can sustain our community when the community is now owned by conglomerates who have the money, resources, and high-level cliques to push around anyone they don’t agree with. This whole situation is a prime example. Anybody who does the slightest amount of research would see exactly what this is about. Zoe’s little clique has enough sway and influence to point their army of SJW’s at any target and make their lives miserable.

    We’ve got some very evil people with way too much sway. It’s sad that the good years of gaming are now behind us. RIP

    • Glenn McBride

      I began my gaming hobby playing Archon, Gunship, and Airborne Ranger on my Commodore C-64 back in the early 1980’s. In all these years, I never felt gamers or the gaming community was under any kind of serious threat, including bouts of economic malaise, or the anti-gaming litigation of kooks like Jack Thompson. But the recent infestation of militant feminists and SJW’s phonies like zoe quinn stands a good chance of having a profoundly negative impact on the entire culture.

      • BabaYaga

        I hear you buddy. C64 were the days of politically uncorrectness. Commando lybia etc. Those were the FREE days of do what you want and we dont give a f***. Thats why the indy scene was or is so important to push out games that are raw to the bone. Beach head games would create an outcry today. We must keep calling these SJW f***** out for what they are. Political tools of the social engeniers.

  • SirTimothy

    Just a slight correction to the article: “white knight” does not mean someone who defends a controversial topic. It means a man who rushes to defend a woman (like Zoe Quinn) from any criticism, even if she deserves it.

  • SirTimothy

    Just a slight correction to the article: “white knight” does not mean someone who defends a controversial topic. It means a man who rushes to defend a woman (like Zoe Quinn) from any criticism, even if she deserves it.

  • BabaYaga

    Fraudster Zoe Quinn in her own dreams,

    I am:

    FEZ 2 (she said that)
    a martyr for female gamers.
    a strong independant game developer
    a feminist
    a female with a voice
    a female who can write on twitter
    a twitter using female
    a social activist
    a game developer
    a writer

    now the harsh reality aka her nightmares,

    a fairy tale
    a fraud
    a talentless hack
    a cheating liar
    a political clown
    a female with no balls
    a female who cant use WASD i BET my ass on!

  • BabaYaga

    Fraudster Zoe Quinn in her own dreams,

    I am:

    FEZ 2 (she said that)
    a martyr for female gamers.
    a strong independant game developer
    a feminist
    a female with a voice
    a female who can write on twitter
    a twitter using female
    a social activist
    a game developer
    a writer

    now the harsh reality aka her nightmares,

    a fairy tale
    a fraud
    a talentless hack
    a cheating liar
    a political clown
    a female with no balls
    a female who cant use WASD i BET my ass on!

  • Red Lagoon

    Very good writing in here. Yes we gamers are tired of being called all name in the books just because the actions of few -minority- rotten apples. Whenever we try to call out that not all of us are like that, we are called all kind of other offensive names. This was not about the private life of a girl/women, this was about corruption, nepotism, bribery in the self called video game “journalists;” all this people can say is “do as I say, don’t do as I do!”

    • In all honesty

      I think it was about both the fact that she was a woman and her sex life and to do with journalism in the gaming industry. Sex sells, lets be real here.
      And the majority of the buyers of this story are guys…

      • Red Lagoon

        So was Robert Florence leaving EuroGamer about him being a boy/man?

        • In all honesty

          Never heard of the guy, although I’ve read Eurogamer.
          Did this Florence guy cause a shitstorm like Quinn or Hernandez all over twitter, 4chan, youtube and net?
          Why haven’t I heard of Florence? Think about it.

          • Red Lagoon

            lol if you didn’t hear about Robert Florence, Geoff Keighley and the David Jaffe debate with Totilio of Kotaku (or if you don’t know this people at all), it means you were too young to understand at the time or either care. This three (and more but I’m lazy) were all over the net. There are even meme. Zoe Quinn was just the explosion after this other guys messed up (you know just like the article says). You did read it, didn’t you?

          • In all honesty

            Actually the opposite is true. I was too old at the time and was working a lot. As I’ve said elsewhere these days I don’t have time to surf as much and this Quinn thing sought me out from a couple of youtube subs. What peaked my interest is that it involves gaming and journalism. Both are private or professional interests. What seems to peak the interest of most on this topic is the idea that people sleep their way to the top – shocking! I can give you dozens of instances in (non gaming) journalism that are far worse than this Quinn case and didn’t get any interest.
            Yes I read the article, but I’m hardly going to memorise names of previous instances of poor journalistic practice in gaming, sorry.
            Are you saying that 2 years after Florence that people (over)reacted on Quinn?
            Its just a coincidence that Florences departure didn’t go viral and Quinn’s case did I suppose?

          • SinisteR

            Apparently you haven’t read too well.

            You keep asking why this is relevant compared to another happening, and this and that. This story is being used as a Tool to try and tackle a bigger issue that these people happen to be a part of, it has a women, it has sex, it has lies….those all sell a good story, which is pretty pathetic, but, it does enable enough people to be seeing the corruption issues in the industry and people are trying to use it to do something about it. You are in some area’s reading too much into the woman, sex, lies parts, and other areas not reading into it enough. The fact that ”so what, i know plenty of men that have…” yeah, they are just as guilty for fking up the industry if they are pulling the same shit, that’s kind of the point, They are all doing shit that is fucking up the industry for us gamers WHO FUND THIS THESE INDUSTRIES, so yes, we are the lie police, the moral police etc etc. Live with it. Stop trying to stand up for her and minimize what she’s done, it’s not really about just her….She’s a tool for us to crack open the armor covering up corruption in these industries.

          • In all honesty

            Apparently nor do you.
            If you read my posts you’d know that I agree with you on standards in the gaming industry / journalism. I agree with you that women, sex personal angle is pretty pathetic.
            I am not standing up for her, I’m standing up for the issues so you are wrong about that but we agree again that it shouldn’t be about her.
            Only thing I disagree with is moralising about other people’s lives. If you think you are a member of the moral police you need to grow the fuck up and mind your own business.
            If you are trying to help society / gaming community progress then I agree with you.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Only thing I disagree with is moralising about other people’s lives.”

            Yet you are expecting somehow that other people would follow that personally held moral value of yours. LOL.

          • In all honesty

            Holding a viewpoint isn’t the same thing as moralising about other people’s lives though, nice try..

          • Red Lagoon

            Florence departure did go viral and it was loud as much as this one (but you was too old at the time and working a lot)!

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Yet somehow he has the time to comment on this one, even though he is now OLDER, and probably still works a lot.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Never heard of the guy, although I’ve read Eurogamer.Did this Florence guy cause a shitstorm like Quinn or Hernandez all over twitter, 4chan, youtube and net?
            Why haven’t I heard of Florence? Think about it.”

            Seriously, you didn’t read the article? It tells you who Florence was.

  • Red Lagoon

    Very good writing in here. Yes we gamers are tired of being called all name in the books just because the actions of few -minority- rotten apples. Whenever we try to call out that not all of us are like that, we are called all kind of other offensive names. This was not about the private life of a girl/women, this was about corruption, nepotism, bribery in the self called video game “journalists;” all this people can say is “do as I say, don’t do as I do!”

    • In all honesty

      I think it was about both the fact that she was a woman and her sex life and to do with journalism in the gaming industry. Sex sells, lets be real here.
      And the majority of the buyers of this story are guys…

      • Red Lagoon

        So was Robert Florence leaving EuroGamer about him being a boy/man?

        • In all honesty

          Never heard of the guy, although I’ve read Eurogamer.
          Did this Florence guy cause a shitstorm like Quinn or Hernandez all over twitter, 4chan, youtube and net?
          Why haven’t I heard of Florence? Think about it.

          • Red Lagoon

            lol if you didn’t hear about Robert Florence, Geoff Keighley and the David Jaffe debate with Totilio of Kotaku (or if you don’t know this people at all), it means you were too young to understand at the time or either care. This three (and more but I’m lazy) were all over the net. There are even meme. Zoe Quinn was just the explosion after this other guys messed up (you know just like the article says). You did read it, didn’t you?

          • In all honesty

            Actually the opposite is true. I was too old at the time and was working a lot. As I’ve said elsewhere these days I don’t have time to surf as much and this Quinn thing sought me out from a couple of youtube subs. What peaked my interest is that it involves gaming and journalism. Both are private or professional interests. What seems to peak the interest of most on this topic is the idea that people sleep their way to the top – shocking! I can give you dozens of instances in (non gaming) journalism that are far worse than this Quinn case and didn’t get any interest.
            Yes I read the article, but I’m hardly going to memorise names of previous instances of poor journalistic practice in gaming, sorry.
            Are you saying that 2 years after Florence that people (over)reacted on Quinn?
            Its just a coincidence that Florences departure didn’t go viral and Quinn’s case did I suppose?

          • SinisteR

            Apparently you haven’t read too well.

            You keep asking why this is relevant compared to another happening, and this and that. This story is being used as a Tool to try and tackle a bigger issue that these people happen to be a part of, it has a women, it has sex, it has lies….those all sell a good story, which is pretty pathetic, but, it does enable enough people to be seeing the corruption issues in the industry and people are trying to use it to do something about it. You are in some area’s reading too much into the woman, sex, lies parts, and other areas not reading into it enough. The fact that ”so what, i know plenty of men that have…” yeah, they are just as guilty for fking up the industry if they are pulling the same shit, that’s kind of the point, They are all doing shit that is fucking up the industry for us gamers WHO FUND THIS THESE INDUSTRIES, so yes, we are the lie police, the moral police etc etc. Live with it. Stop trying to stand up for her and minimize what she’s done, it’s not really about just her….She’s a tool for us to crack open the armor covering up corruption in these industries.

          • In all honesty

            Apparently nor do you.
            If you read my posts you’d know that I agree with you on standards in the gaming industry / journalism. I agree with you that women, sex personal angle is pretty pathetic.
            I am not standing up for her, I’m standing up for the issues so you are wrong about that but we agree again that it shouldn’t be about her.
            Only thing I disagree with is moralising about other people’s lives. If you think you are a member of the moral police you need to grow the fuck up and mind your own business.
            If you are trying to help society / gaming community progress then I agree with you.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Only thing I disagree with is moralising about other people’s lives.”

            Yet you are expecting somehow that other people would follow that personally held moral value of yours. LOL.

          • In all honesty

            Holding a viewpoint isn’t the same thing as moralising about other people’s lives though, nice try..

          • Red Lagoon

            Florence departure did go viral and it was loud as much as this one (but you was too old at the time and working a lot)!

          • Gregg Braddoch

            Yet somehow he has the time to comment on this one, even though he is now OLDER, and probably still works a lot.

          • Gregg Braddoch

            “Never heard of the guy, although I’ve read Eurogamer.Did this Florence guy cause a shitstorm like Quinn or Hernandez all over twitter, 4chan, youtube and net?
            Why haven’t I heard of Florence? Think about it.”

            Seriously, you didn’t read the article? It tells you who Florence was.

  • In all honesty

    What I find interesting about this whole debacle isn’t what we can agree on – that corruption in video games industry is bad.
    No, what I find interesting is that out of the many thousands of men in the industry its a woman who has been found behaving badly. Its not like men in the gaming industry are doing corrupt things every day is it?

    And the newest example of corruption in the industry – surely by law of averages should be a guy right? Oh no, its Hernandez from Kotaku, another woman.
    Just makes me wonder what kind of agenda there is and it detracts from the serious issue of serious issues in the industry.

    • TerribleName

      Oh, Im certain men do dumb shit every day. The difference is they tend not to scream so loudly when caught and piss off the rest of the internet. Look at this Grayson guy. After being outed he went into damage control mode, barely said anything, and let his boss write a piece that basically amounts to ‘Its cool guys we asked him if he was corrupt and he said he wasnt and why would he lie to us?’ Occasionally someone gets thrown to the wolves, google Dorito-Gate, but on the whole dumb ass men tend not to yell about it because if they couldnt quietly slip away already no one is going to come to the rescue

      Women though, they can try for the Social Justice trump card if they get caught. Look at Zoe Quinn’s reaction. Feeding the trolls brings more people around to defend her, and SJWs will blindly defend a woman from anything without thinking too hard about it. She could have murdered a baby and eaten its still beating heart and some people would have still given her the benefit of the doubt. “Maybe that baby was a dick to her and deserved it! Its not for me to judge!”. And anyone who objects can be swept away in the tide of inevitable sexist morons who will come pouring out of the woodwork.

      Hernandez has kind of been in the crosshairs for awhile, but it was only in the wake of Quinngate that people were pissed off enough to actually do the research on her and get it publicized. She probably could have gone for a long while if the internet hadn’t gotten so riled up.

      • In all honesty

        Yeah you know they do. I’m a man. A lot of us have a tendancy to put it where we shouldn’t for one bad reason or another, I know I have. And hell, you know how many guys would sleep their way to the top if women would give us the chance, or if they were in senior positions to begin with.

        Point is that I barely heard of that Grayson guy, couldn’t remember his name till you mentioned it but Quinn and now Hernandez are viral.

        Now I’ll say that it all looks dodgy to me, but I’m not going to take my gloves off and start beating because some chick slept with guys to get ahead. Welcome to life for fucks sake. How old are the guys so shocked by this?
        Are we the moral police? Listen, if she eat a baby, its for the law to deal with her, its got nothing to do with me. Oh yeah I can say ‘thats’ wrong’ but who gives a crap about that. Am I supposed to try to punish her for that? And anyway are you listening to yourself, comparing what she did to killing and eating children. Jesus, take it down a notch.
        Who cares about SJW? So you don’t like that politics, meanwhile thousands of people are being massacred / tortured around the world. Where is the sense of perspective here?

        • TerribleName

          Its the internet, there is no perspective. But as for Grayson and Quinn, look at Graysons twitter, then look at Quinns. *That* is why the reaction has been so different. Grayson mostly shut up and stayed low and didnt fan the flames. Quinn jumped into the fire full speed ahead.

          • In all honesty

            Well I’m on the internet with a sense of perspective. People with a lack of perspective more often than not don’t have much life experience.
            OK so it wasn’t what Quinn did thats important now, its how she responded? Come on. Bringing that baby back it would be ok if I said ok I killed the baby and eat it, hands up. Leave me alone then!
            And if somebody else had say cut a baby but denied it, well that person should be strung up. Don’t get me wrong I also hate denial and value somebody admitting something, but its about the original ‘crime’, less important denial or not.
            Its fucked up man. Is the internet a 14 year old boy? More importantly than that, should we all behave like that because others are doing so? Hell, I didn’t do that at school and I’m not going to start now.

          • TerribleName

            “Is the internet a 14 year old boy?” How do you not know this? Is this your first day on the internet? And the level of backlash is absolutely tied to how they handled it. Two people were doused in fuel and lit on fire. One of them stopped, dropped and rolled. The other ran off screaming into a fireworks factory. Also she was a woman, which attracts its own special kind of people who like to yell about FAKE GAMER GIRLS.

            Youre stretching the baby metaphor too far and I have no idea what you meant to say, sorry.

            Also, people have this weird belief that humans can only care about one thng at a time. Im aware theres a whole other world out there and this is pretty small potatoes, but Im more than capable of having opinions on israel, ferguson, ISIS, and whatever else is happening while still also thinking Zoe Quinn and pals are jerks. They arent mutually exclusive.

          • In all honesty

            OK well certain parts of the internet are like that, but I can go for weeks without seeing this mentality. Even on 4chan there are areas where that kind of thing doesn’t dominate.
            This shitstorm came and sought me out through youtube (subs), even though I tried to avoid it.
            I’m telling you that I understand your point about backlash, but I’m saying that it doesn’t mean that those of us with a bit more intelligence should join in. And in fact rather than be dragged into the crap the best response is to reign people in.
            Yeah I saw that – fake gamer girls, poor souls who raving about girls not being gamers and upset because they didn’t get attention from girls at school. Guys who hate the idea of girls sleeping around, unless they are sleeping with them. Other guys that have constructed ‘values’ about sleeping around being slutty – as a response to the fact they couldn’t / can’t get any themselves.
            I even lived some of that (but without the anger), got over it when I went to college. It sound silly but I still feel their pain, but hatred of girl gamers / women is not the way to go.

            This weird belief… ok you asked for it. Do you think that time is better served doxng Fish, or say cracking police computers in Ferguson to prove one way or another whose version was true (maybe a copy of the car cam, or recording of police calling it in). This is just an example. We have hundreds of people (well, mostly guys) who are resources being wasted on Quinn, writing, making videos on her, graphs, computer programs. It IS a choice – whatever you spend your time on is time you could have spent on something else, one excludes the other by vitrue of limited time.
            Baby metaphor – its not killing the baby that causes people to be upset, its the denial that makes them angry. Its not Quinn’s conduct that makes people upset, its her denial that caused a reaction. Since when does denial cause punishment, rather than the original crime. Thats what I meant.

          • Meir Teichman

            “This weird belief… ok you asked for it. Do you think that time is better served doxng Fish, or say cracking police computers in Ferguson to prove one way or another whose version was true (maybe a copy of the car cam, or recording of police calling it in). This is just an example. We have hundreds of people (well, mostly guys) who are resources being wasted on Quinn, writing, making videos on her, graphs, computer programs.”

            who said the hackers who are getting the info on this insident aent working on the ferguson case also?

          • In all honesty

            The proof is in the eating. How much evidence have hackers produced on Ferguson? How much have they produced on Quinn?
            Its there for all to see, honestly you can’t argue on this particular point.

          • Meir Teichman

            there is little digital media to hack with ferguson is quite small now that i think about it. the most solid evidence you could get on there is video f the shooting which i i think there is only one which was put online already. the other thing is the identity of the cop p who shot Michael brown which i think anonymous obtained already